3SchemeQueens
Each week, hosts Kait, Colleen, and Megan take you down the rabbit hole of a brand-new conspiracy theory or mystery. From shadowy cover-ups and unexplained events to viral internet rabbit holes, they bring the tea, the facts, and the tinfoil crowns. Join the conversation, laugh along with them, and question everything. When it’s all over, they’ll tell you what they think and they’ll try to prove it to you. So grab a drink, hit follow, and tune in every Tuesday for a new episode.
3SchemeQueens
Lindsay Clancy: Murder or Madness?
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**Episode begins at 4:45**
There are some cases where the facts are so horrifying that we instinctively want the answer to be simple. Someone did something terrible, they knew what they were doing, and they should be held responsible. But what happens when the person accused of doing something unimaginable may also have been profoundly, catastrophically mentally ill? That is the question at the center of the Lindsay Clancy trial. In January of 2023, three siblings, five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Callan were killed inside their home in Duxbury, Massachusetts. Their mother, Lindsay Clancy, survived an apparent suicide attempt and was ultimately charged with three counts of first-degree murder. Now, more than three years later, a jury is being asked to decide if Lindsay did it, and what was going in her mind at the time. Today we’re going to breakdown the possibilities. The first is the prosecution's version: Lindsay did it, she knew exactly what she was doing, and she is criminally responsible. The evidence, they argue, points to planning, decision-making, and deliberate actions before and after the children's deaths. The second is the defense's argument: Lindsay did it but she was experiencing a devastating psychiatric illness, including postpartum psychosis, and was not criminally responsible for her actions. Her attorneys have pointed to her deteriorating mental health, her psychiatric treatment, medications, and what they say was a failure to recognize just how seriously ill she had become. And then there is the third possibility being argued by armchair detectives following the case… What if Lindsay didn't do it at all? This week, we’ll look at the evidence that supports each possibility, the evidence that challenges each one, and what the law actually requires, because this isn't just a story about a mother accused of killing her children. It's a case about mental illness, postpartum psychosis, criminal responsibility, the limits of psychiatric medicine, and the justice system. So buckle up foil heads, because this one is complicated.
Theme song by INDA
Hey, it's Colleen. Hi, it's Kate, and it's Megan, and we're the three scheme queens.
SPEAKER_01Join us each week as we take turns presenting a brand new conspiracy theory or mystery.
SPEAKER_02From shadowy cover-ups and unexplained events to viral rabbit holes, we bring the tea, it's piping, the facts, and the tinfoil crowns.
SPEAKER_00Join the conversation, laugh along with us, and question everything.
SPEAKER_02When it's all over, we'll tell you what we think and we'll try to prove it to you.
SPEAKER_01So grab your drink, hit the follow, and tune in every Tuesday. We're back. We're back a week early. And we came out a week early because we were like, things are happening.
SPEAKER_00News is hot. Kate texted. She's like, we've got Melissa Casillas autopsy results. We got Keefe D on trial for Tupac's murder. We got Man Gioni pleading guilty. We got Brian Koberger filing a petition to challenge his guilty plea. And we've got Lindsay Clancy. Lindsay. Oh my god. And Kate said, guys, we gotta get back on the mic.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's too, it's there's too many things happening. We we gotta we gotta summer is over.
SPEAKER_00We got a hot mic. Yeah. So we were trying to let Kate get her kids back to school before we before we started back up, but we couldn't quite make it.
SPEAKER_01You know what? They go back tomorrow. We almost made it. I for one am very excited to be back on the mic with you guys. Uh-huh. Happy start of the fourth season, guys.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Season four. Number four. I feel like I showed up to Kate's and Colleen had just gotten here and we were just like catching up and it was just like rapid fire. And I was like, Did you miss this Chaos Bourbon Boy? And he was like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He was watching four separate games on the TV. The doorbell was going off because all these kids are knocking on the door. Megan's making two separate loaves of bread. Yeah, excuse me, three separate loaves of bread. And then I'm just crafting at the table.
SPEAKER_01Kids are in and out of the house because their kid their friends are outside and they're like, Oh, can I go outside? Well, that's good. That's how it's like. They ride their bikes outside, they like play outside.
SPEAKER_02They hang out at the playground.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if it's like generational healing. Like we're all going through and you know, but like even middle schoolers are still out at the playground, and I'm all for it. They do usually have their phones, but at least they're hanging out together.
SPEAKER_00I just felt like the can't to take all that other chaos out. It was just the Kate calling Megan that I thought was like a lot.
SPEAKER_01We we were excited. Yeah. We got it over with before the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Got out of our system. This is kind of a laxadaisical Sunday. Yeah. So there's typically like a time crunch where like we gotta get Kate's just coming off a shift, she's tired, we gotta get, we gotta lock in before the fatigue sets in, or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Or Kate's kids are gonna be home soon. We gotta finish by then. Yeah. Or usually Kate. Kate has to be bedtime and we gotta finish before then.
SPEAKER_02Take it our wiggles out right away.
SPEAKER_00Okay. This is kind of a long episode, so we're just gonna get into it. But I guess before we start. So is it time for our drink? Drink change.
SPEAKER_01Megan brought this back from Italy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Europe. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh today we're having a Hugo Spritz, which I was informed I was like the last one to discover. It's the drink of summer.
SPEAKER_02It's really good. It's delicious. It's better than an Aperol spritz, in my opinion. I agree.
SPEAKER_00I do not like Aperol.
SPEAKER_02I don't like Aperol either. Sometimes I do. It really depends on the ratios.
SPEAKER_01It's very sweet. Well, and it's got kind of like bitter.
SPEAKER_02I like when they're more bitter. Yeah, I don't like the bitterness.
SPEAKER_01I'll I'll never forget the first time I ordered one. I was like, what the hell does everybody like about this? I I immediately sent it back. I was like, I can't do it. I'm so sorry. Of course you sent it back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You didn't just say, My bad for ordering a drink I don't like. I said, I'm so sorry, I really don't like this. And they said, It's okay, what do you want? And I just ordered a glass of wine. Well, that's a nice restaurant. Yeah. I'm so judgy right now.
SPEAKER_00So Taurus. This is a Prosecco and Club Soda and Elder Flower Liqueur. It was a hit with all three scheme queens, right? Yeah. Yeah. So got everything I like. Bubbles, cold, yeah, dice. So this, you know, it doesn't, we don't often have a unanimous win here. Yeah. But here we are. So cheers, guys, to season four.
SPEAKER_01We're popping champagne. Okay, but now we have to get serious because this one starts.
SPEAKER_02This is a very sad episode.
SPEAKER_01It literally makes me feel like physically ill to my stomach talking about the actual murders. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm gonna try not to get too much into that. Yeah. But look, give you we're gonna give the facts here.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna talk about the conspiracies around it.
SPEAKER_00Well, not not not even. I'll tell you what we're gonna talk about. Okay. Okay. It's in my intro. Okay. Let's hear it, Megan. All right, let's lock in, ladies. There are some cases where the facts are so horrifying that we instinctively want the answer to be simple. Someone did something terrible, they knew what they were doing, and they should be held responsible. But what happens when the person accused of doing something unimaginable may also have been profoundly, catastrophically mentally ill? That is the question at the center of the Lindsay Clancy trial. In January of 2023, three siblings, five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight month old Callan were killed inside their home in Ducksbury, Massachusetts. Their mother, Lindsay Clancy, survived an apparent suicide attempt and was ultimately charged with three counts of first degree murder. Now, more than three years later, a jury is being asked to decide if Lindsay did it and what was going on in her mind at that time. Today we're going to break down the possibilities. The first is the prosecution's version. Lindsay did it, she knew exactly what she was doing, and she's criminally responsible. The evidence, they argue, points to planning, decision-making, and deliberate actions before and after the children's deaths. The second is the defense's argument. Lindsay did it, but she was experiencing a devastating psychiatric illness, including postpartum psychosis, and was not criminally responsible for her actions. Her attorneys have pointed to her deteriorating mental health, her psychiatric treatment, medications, and what they say was a failure to recognize just how seriously ill she had become. And then there is a third possibility being argued by armchair detectives following the case. What if Lindsay didn't do it at all? This week we'll look at the evidence that supports each possibility, the evidence that challenges each one, and what the law actually requires, because this isn't just a story about a mother accused of killing her children. It's a case about mental illness, postpartum psychosis, criminal responsibility, the limits of psychiatric medicine, and the justice system. So buckle up foil heads, because this one is complicated. So yes, as of the the airing of this, or as of the our recording, the so currently the prosecution rested, the defense rested. The prosecution has brought rebuttal witnesses forward. So that's gonna continue tomorrow, and then closing arguments should start either tomorrow or Tuesday. Right. So by the time this comes out, the jury's probably gonna be heading towards deliberations. Do you guys have strong feelings about what I think Pat Patrick did it? Okay. I think a strong feeling.
SPEAKER_02He should have been ruled out, but he wasn't. But I think 100% choose in a psychotic breakdown.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I've every time I read something new, my position changes. So again, we'll we'll give the facts, we'll debate, and maybe I'll have a stronger opinion by the time this is all over. Again, just a like kind of historical recap of what's been happening, in case you have been living under a rock, or I guess all the men. I feel like all the women seem to be really following this case closely. Yeah. And everyone's spouses are like, what's going on? Yeah. So Lindsay Clancy was a 32-year-old labor and delivery nurse at Mass General at the time of this event. She was on maternity leave. Uh her immediate postpartum course with her third child had allegedly been uneventful. But since her husband Patrick had returned to work in the summer of 2022 and she was preparing to return to work in the fall, she began to experience increasing anxiety. And it sounds like she had been treated in the past for anxiety while she was in nursing school, which who isn't? Yes. And also again after the birth of her first two kids, but nothing to the level of what she's experiencing at this, you know, during our tail our story here. Starting in September of 2022, she sought help and was in the care of multiple mental health providers, which we're definitely going to dive deeper into. But needless to say, over the next four months, she was under the care of at least three psychiatrists, two psychiatric mental health nurse practitioners, one social worker, and she'd participated in one inpatient and one outpatient program. She was trialed on various cocktails of medications, trying 13 different drugs at varying doses and combinations during that time. And we know that she reached out to multiple crisis lines and inpatient programs asking for help. On January 24th, she allegedly sent her husband out to CVS and to pick up dinner. And when he returned an hour later, he claims to have found the defendant injured outside, having taken pills crushed in lemonade, and then attempted to slit her wrists and neck before jumping out of their two-story window. The three young children were reportedly found strangled in the basement with exercise bands knotted around their necks. Five-year-old Cora and three-year-old Dawson were declared dead on arrival to the hospital. Eight-month-old Callan was resuscitated and placed on life support before passing away three days later. Lindsay Clancy cardiac arrested at the scene and was resuscitated and transported to a nearby hospital where she is diagnosed with a complete transection of her spinal cord at T5 and T6 and a Jefferson fracture, which is like a traumatic burst fracture of the cervical vertebrae. She had internal bleeding and severe hypothermia to 82 degrees Fahrenheit. She survived, but she remains paralyzed below her sternum and wheelchair bound. So in September of 2023, a grand jury indicted Lindsay Clancy on three counts of murder, one for each child, and three counts of strangulation, one for each child. Prior to the trial, the prosecution dropped the three counts of strangulation as they deemed them redundant and wanted the jury to focus on the three murder charges. So currently, she is facing three counts of first-degree murder, alleging that she sent her husband out of the house so she could deliberately kill each child before attempting to kill herself. In Massachusetts, if found guilty of first-degree murder, is an automatic life sentence without the possibility of parole. Prior to the trial starting, her attorney Kevin Reddington followed the colour.
SPEAKER_01You know, we never really thought that a 75-year-old white man would be our hero in 2026.
SPEAKER_02He's a girl dad. That's a girl dad right there.
SPEAKER_00I think he's doing a great job, but I did have thoughts about some of his cross-examination of medical providers, but we'll talk about that. Okay. Really riled you up. Riled me up a little bit. So Kevin Reddington filed notice to the court of his intent to pursue an insanity defense saying, quote, the defendant does intend to present to the court a defense of lack of criminal responsibility. So in essence, they said she's not going to contest that she killed her children in this trial. Our focus is going to be on her mental state and that it prevents her from being legally culpable.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So to be clear, it's like she's pleading not guilty. But he's like, here is my defense. My defense is she's not mentally on a sound mind. Correct. Yeah. But the plea itself is like not guilty, and that falls under a not guilty plea, right? So the current Massachusetts statute says that the murder is first-degree murder when it is committed with deliberately premeditated malice, forethought with extreme atrocity or cruelty, or during certain qualifying felonies. So to be found guilty, the Commonwealth has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsay caused each child's death and that she acted with malice and intent. So this means she intended to kill or intended to cause grievous bodily harm or perform some act that a reasonable person would know created a strong likelihood of death. So that's like the first part. But remember, premeditation does not have to be hours or days. It can just be a brief period of reflection. Right. Since a defense has submitted this defense, the prosecution also has to prove that she was criminally responsible for her actions because in Massachusetts, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. So since he said, we don't think that she was of sound mind, the prosecution has to prove that she was and that she knew what she was doing. Okay. And this is not just a like, was she mentally ill question? They can't just say she was mentally ill, so she's exempt from responsibility, right? She can be severely mentally ill and that can contribute to the killings, and she can still be criminally responsible. The defense has to prove that on the day of the murders, she was experiencing a psychotic break so profound that she could not appreciate the wrongfulness of killing her children. And again, we currently have 18 jurors. It's 12 women and six men who are deciding that. So that is our background.
SPEAKER_01It's really interesting that there's 12 women on the jury. I I will say that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm sure the defense wanted a lot of women on the jury, right?
SPEAKER_01Right. That's what I mean. It's interesting. Yeah. Because I think a lot of women, what we've seen, even before we start talking about this, what we've seen online is that a lot of women are really like seeing themselves in Lindsay Clancy and their mental health struggles in the postpartum period.
SPEAKER_02It's really like shined a light on like how poor quality m postpartum mothers are treated.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that women's health, especially in the postpartum period, is really the ball is dropped. So it's interesting. As someone who has experienced postpartum depression and anxiety, I think it's I I think it's pretty I don't know. Twelve women, 12 women on a jury seems like they've got that in the bag.
SPEAKER_02Um before we get into like the complete details of the case, just like as a person who's gone through postpartum, the follow-up for a mom is only like one follow-up appointment, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but like I will say I I think Lindsay Clancy did as well as she could to get the help that she needed. I think she was very vocal. She advocated for herself. Yeah. So I don't want to say that I but as someone who struggled with anxiety before I got pregnant, I knew that I was predisposed after I had the baby to PPA. So I was like on high alert for any symptoms. And I asked for help like very quickly. And I had been on an SSRI before pregnancy, and I asked to go on the same one, and then it was fine. Really, the second time around, my postpartum was worse because they tried me on the like breastfeeding safe one at the time, which was Zoloft, and Zoloft did not did not help me. It actually made it worse. So I went back on my Lexapro and it was fine. Shout out to like my mom because she dropped everything and came up and stayed indefinitely.
SPEAKER_02She could see the red flags. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then my dad was like, when I came through and Bourbon Boy and I were talking about oh, should we have another? My dad, every time we talked about it, he was like, I cannot even talk about what you were like after Joey. And yeah, you cannot have another kid. Like he was like, I'm afraid for you, and I'm afraid for the baby. Green flags to for my dad, too.
SPEAKER_00I was like, is this too much information? That one time Kate was in school in a high-level stress, and then she texted us that she was late. And I said, This, you're God. I said, Kate, we cannot, not even the anxiety. I was like, we cannot live this with you. We cannot do this. And then when she was like, it was a false alarm, and she was like, and I think that's just what's best for everybody. And I was like, Yeah, even no, yes, nobody fake fetus at the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Like, my God.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. Okay, so so I you bring up some good points there though, because we're gonna talk about SSRIs being the first line. Yep. And you said Zoloft is what you tried on.
SPEAKER_01Zoloft was what I've tried on with Joey, but then before you guys know I've I could like sell LexPro on the streets, like it's my favorite.
SPEAKER_00I I think there's no question for any of our listeners, you know that all three of us are you still Lex Pro? No, I'm on Pro Zac now. Yeah, all three of us were on Lexapro. Yeah, Colleen has had to adapt because she has other other diagnoses now, but we're we are all hardcore LexaPro supporters.
SPEAKER_02Before we get into, I think if you're not in any type of medical field in following this case, it's really hard to understand. I think psych meds are a whole other world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I do think that this is a good episode for us because true crime, I'm interested in it, right? We're we're mental health advocates, but also I think this is very medical. Our our medical background, I believe, we're strong. Gives us a little bit of uh a leg up. So I think we should break this down and we should just talk through like the prosecution's case, the defenses case, and then the conspiracy theory online. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That feels good.
SPEAKER_00So if we start with the prosecution's case, again, they are alleging that Lindsay Clancy deliberately and premeditatedly killed her three children and then staged a suicide attempt. So they don't think that she really wanted to die, that they it was all just supposed to be staged. Okay. They claim that Lindsay had become overwhelmed by her life and her perceived loss of control because I think she was a very controlling woman. And by very controlling, she had a schedule for her children. Mm-hmm. Which is like uh and she watched them, she watched them on the nanny cam, which I know a lot of moms who that is watching her kids on the strong um Yeah, the nanny cam.
SPEAKER_02The sleep cams.
SPEAKER_01Or not the knee, yeah, but the nanit.
SPEAKER_00The baby monitor that is now a camera.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the nanit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So they think that she had this loss of control, and so she made a deliberate decision to eliminate the children. Prosecutors have characterized her as controlling a meticulous, and they argue that she had this forethought she created an opportunity to be alone with the children by sending Patrick out and then carried out the killings and attempted, again, attempted this fake suicide. They agree. They are not arguing that she did not have genuine mental health struggles, but they claim that she remained lucid, organized, purposeful, and aware of what she was doing, and she knew that it was wrong. And they point to her planning, her communications, her searches, and her behavior before and after the killings, which we'll talk about. The first person who testified in this case was Patrick Clancy. And I feel like every this is what everyone's talking about this, right? It went on for two days, and this is sort of what spawned the wait a minute, this guy's sketchy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, was he involved? But his version of events is that on January 24th, his wife was happy. Up until this point, she'd had four months of various treatments and medications, but that this was a good day. He said she was playing with the kids, she seemed to be in a good mood, and she was having one of her best days. Patrick was working in the basement in his home office, and Lindsay was upstairs with the children. That day, she took Cory to a doctor's appointment that morning, did art projects with the kids, and then played in the snow with them. So the prosecution uses to highlight that she was not psychotic at the time of the murders. They're like, look, she had this great day. Right. Maybe she was happy and calm. Because she knew that what was going to happen later. Yep. At 4 53 p.m., Lindsay texted Patrick asking if he wanted to take out for dinner from 3V because it had been a long day and she just hadn't been able to cook. She called the restaurant and she placed an order for a Mediterranean Powerbowl and a scallop and pork belly risotto to be picked up. And she asked Patrick to stop at CVS on the way to pick up children's Miralax for Cora. Can I ask a follow-up question? Yeah. Was he at work during the day? He works from a home office in the basement. Okay. Okay. But he travels a lot. So according to the prosecution, Lindsay made again, they're like, look, she made this plan to get him out of the house so she could commit this crime. The prosecution called a number of Lindsay's medical providers to testify, and they did not believe that Lindsay was in a psychotic state. Her providers testified that she had severe anxiety and insomnia, but was not psychotic. If we just take a minute to talk through this mental health treatment, okay. Dr. Tufts uh treated Lindsay through 14 virtual appointments beginning in September of 2022. She was diagnosed with a generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder without significant problems. That was the diagnosis she had. And the patient had reported taking an SSRI in nursing school for anxiety. And so at that point, her first treatment in September, she was started on Zoloft. The following month, she reported difficulty sleeping, diarrhea, increased depression, mental fog, anxiety, and fear that she could become suicidal. So in all these questions, I kept saying, Are you having suicidal thoughts? And she said, No, but I'm afraid it could get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I think that is important when we critique the mental health treatment. Yeah. Okay. Again, she said Clancy denied suicidal eations, but she feared developing them. So she started her on Ataban and Buuse Bar and reported over the next month that she'd had some improvement. Right. So through October, she's reporting some improvement, although she's very concerned about getting addicted to benzos. Benzo diazepine. Um, so that'd be Atavan.
SPEAKER_01Which I think is a fair Yeah, that'd be my fear too. Yeah, I would, I would be so afraid. We are like warned about benzos, especially it's now like they're not supposed to be first-line treatment for anxiety.
SPEAKER_00And it drives me crazy. I think it's a good rescue therapy. But it's like not permanent. No, and so when I get patients who come in and their outpatient doctors have prescribed like they have anxiety and they take PRN Xanax, and I'm like, well, do you take an SS, you take something daily to maintain and this for breakthrough and they don't, and nothing drives me crazy, or you should not just be taking benzo. So I think yes, as a healthy, this is very reasonable to be like, I feel better, but I don't want to be hooked on benzo. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When Megan says rescue, it means like if you're having a panic attack and you need something to just calm down, you can take a benz benzodiazepine and that will help you calm down.
SPEAKER_02But like an SSRI is what's gonna prevent the panic attack from happening.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So you need something on board daily, and then on an acided basis, I need something extra today because something as stressful is happening.
SPEAKER_01Yes, the benzo is your albuterol. Yes, exactly. There you go.
SPEAKER_00That's good, that's a good analogy. Yeah. But take that Wixella daily, you know? Exactly. The following month, she recorded difficulty sleeping, diarrhea, increased depression, mental fog, anxiety, and again, fear that she would become suicidal. But again, Dr. Tufts said she denied. So saliations while she's seeing Dr. Tufts at this point. Now we're into going into like November, right? She began seeing a specialist. Julie Paul was a psychiatric nurse practitioner at Perinatal Behavioral Health Program of South Shore Hospital. And Patrick's mom, so Lindsay's mother-in-law was a nurse at South Shore. And so she reached out again. I think it has been very clear from this trial that Lindsay Clancy reached out to her mother, her mother-in-law. Everyone knew she was struggling. This was not something she was really hiding. Right. And so her mother-in-law reached out to Julie and said, My daughter-in-law is having um a lot of anxiety. Can you help her? So Julie Paul started seeing her and she started her on Prozac and like in place of Zoloft, started her on Prozac. And she said, you know, you may have a temporary exacerbation of anxiety while the meds kick in. They usually take a month or so to start working, which I think is a thing that also was sort of one of my issues as we go through this, is that a lot of these psych meds don't work in a day or two. And I think there was a lot of medication hopping because nothing was working quick quickly, but that's how it is. And generally you do have these initial side effects. Things might happen in the first week or two you're on a medication, which is not how you're gonna feel forever. Right. Right. So she warned her you may have a temporary exacerbation of your anxiety while the meds kick in, but in a month or so you're gonna feel much better. And she again prescribed her Atavan to help her sleep, which I don't think that's a good sleep aid. No.
SPEAKER_01Um But a lot, I feel like I see that a lot. A lot of people take Atavan to help sleep. Yeah, that's crazy. It's hard for me to think of like, and I'm not passing judgment, but as somebody who like and has been through a couple newborns, like I think it would be really hard to take something like that. You don't want to be knocked out, yeah, and then want to hear your baby crying, like anyway. But I'm not I'm but that to me that would be really hard.
SPEAKER_00I do think she was tried on, and we go through this list um a lot of different meds for sleep, but I don't I don't know about the benzos for sleep. But regardless, so after three days of the Prozac, she said, I feel really disconnected, I don't like this. They stopped her and they switched to Remeron and Clonapin. So clonapin is a longer aftine benzodiazepine, remeron is an antidepressant. It's like a sleep age that can also we like it in the hospital because it it's the one that's proven to increase appetite. So like remeron. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's like a good antidepressant and it does increase your appetite if that's what she's having.
SPEAKER_01And it it like helps sleep at low doses, and then at high doses, it was treated like an antidepressant.
SPEAKER_00Clonapine. And clonapine is gonna be longer acting than Atavan, but it's still a benzodiazepine, right? And she did document, you know, she the the patient is telling me that she's very anxious about taking benzene. Julie did say, are you wishing an inpatient treatment? And at this time, Lindsay said, I have three kids. I can't be leaving them to go to inpatient treatment. Right. So I don't think she really met criteria here. And I think she also was like, I'm seeing you for anxiety. And so how is being away from my three children gonna help my anxiety? That makes sense, right? Right. But anyway, Julie Paul left. She went to a different job. So she got got transferred to Rebecca Gelata. Again, she works at this perinatal behavioral health program. So this is like a postpartum area specialty, right? Now keep in mind, while she's seeing her, she is still seeing Dr. Tufts, who is like a general psychiatrist.
SPEAKER_01I I guess I know that I have a problem with her shopping doctors. I do too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I don't know if it's really again, it is she is seen as specialist, but I do feel like if you're gonna do that, you need to be open with your provider. Like, we're really getting ahead of ourselves, but like Dr. Tufts had no idea. They kind of game for her, like how why didn't you have other records? You have this 15-minute window to see a 30 minute perspective. You're supposed to, we can't read your mind, right? Right. So I'm supposed to, if I'm on Epic and they're on Epic, okay, for example, a computer program, I can search what providers have you seen. But if this provider is not on the same program, right, there's no way to see who you're seeing.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00And I so I think the charting systems don't talk, guys. No, so there has to be a degree of like forthcomings. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so then she's seen these two doctors. So we have two different doctors prescribing her regimens. Right. Okay, so now she's seen Rebecca, uh, who testified she wanted off the Remeron because she didn't like the way it made her feel, stating it was giving her intrusive thoughts. She reported that she told her this was common and to give the medication a little more time. And again, this is what I'm saying. I feel like none of these medications got more than a couple days, and you need more than a couple days to really see effects. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um It sounds like um Lindsay Clancy is like very like it's almost like she didn't want to take the medications. She wanted to get better without medication. That's what it seemed like, but then kept reaching out for help.
SPEAKER_00And then I think this is the problem with polypharmacy, right? Then you reach out and you go, I have the symptoms of A, B, and C. So now we're giving you medications to treat A, B, and C. And then you develop side effects from those medications. And there is also a degree of, I'm not talking about this specific case, I'm just advocating giving you the other side because everyone there's also this degree of I would say patient satisfaction, right? If I say, I'm sorry you're not sleeping well, just give it a few days for this medication to tear off, and you're not happy. I'm getting a bad review. Yeah, now it and now my Medicare reimbursement is down because I'm getting bad reviews. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm seeing like two perspectives. I'm seeing that provider's perspective with the pressure of reviews, the pressure of insurance, the pressure of getting like as many patients in the day that they can to profit and not being able to really deep dive, take you know what I mean? They don't have that opportunity. And then I also see the perspective of a highly anxious postpartum mom of three with an unsupportive partner. I agree. Who wants to get shit done so she can be the best mom she could, and I can see how postpartum anxiety increased her irrational thought to try a new meds, try new meds, try.
SPEAKER_00I agree. And I'm not trying to come for Lindsay, I'm just trying to give the other perspective because I think it was easy for people to watch and not see that cross-examination and just like come for Dr. Tufts. And then, I mean, Rebecca Gelata said also, like, I told her you need to give this medication more time. But also, she straight up said, What am I gonna do? Like, if I don't have buy-in from my patient, yeah, she's not like I can't be like, you need to take the meds for a week. She's gonna be like, I don't like how I feel, I'm coming off the meds, right? So you have to at least work with them because you have someone who's telling you how they feel and they're arguing against what the evidence shows, right? And I think the I'm really gonna make anyone do anything. Oh, and I think we'll talk more about it in a moment, but like people coming for Tufts, why'd you start her on an SSRI? I'm like, Prozac and Zolhoft are like the first line medications for postpartum. Right. So that wasn't unreasonable. And they're coming for her charting because she didn't put a I mean, do you say patient denied nausea, denied vomiting, denied anorexia? No, you say denied nausea, vomiting, anorexia, right? But when she writes that, they're coming for her as like her her documentation is incorrect. Uh and so I just feel like I had a lot of issues and the and the ranting about her being virtual, Dr. Tufts being virtual, like she's still getting psychiatric treatment from this doctor.
SPEAKER_01And this is how a lot of psychiatric treatment is happening right now. Okay is virtual.
SPEAKER_00It goes back to you want this mommy, you want this mom to spend 30 minutes driving to and from an appointment getting child care for her kids when she when her whole reason for seeing you is anxiety about the children. Right. Whereas you could you could have her see you while her kids are playing in the room. Right.
SPEAKER_01Also, everyone's so upset about this telehealth, right? Yeah, that's just what interesting. There's also people, you know, everyone's all upset about the insurance too. Insurance would be pissed off if the insurance said, I'm not gonna cover the health care that this person's getting from telehealth, and that she needs to go into it, she needs to go into the office, and then everyone's gonna be all up in arms about how this woman had to go take her three children out of the house and go get health. I mean, my insurance, I have a kid that sees a psychiatrist, and my insurance delegated that I needed to see and it I needed to see that psychiatrist in person before we did any sort of intervention. And it was all because of my insurance. And the and the and the psychiatrist offers telehealth telehealth, like so there's no, again, there is no like pleasing the public.
SPEAKER_02What bothers me is where is Patrick?
SPEAKER_00Where we're getting the thing is there's just so inflation. I've it's all we're getting to we're getting to Patrick. I'm sorry, I've already digressed because I have these. I'm just talking about Dr. Tufts and me mad. I also just want to say real quickly that I agree with everything you said, Colleen. And I and again, I don't want to sound like I'm not seeing both sides. I am just perspective. But when you say also that they're worried about profiting as well, I think there's a misnomer about how much medical providers sorry, when I meant their work, I meant the company they work for pressuring them to make a profit.
SPEAKER_02Because not the provider themselves. I didn't mean the provider specific. I meant like the company, the the people actually making the money is not the provider.
SPEAKER_00Let's all focus our anger and rage at insurance at the insurance companies, yeah, and the come on Luigi and the administrators of no, what we don't say come on, Luigi, and the administrators of hospitals who don't have any medical background because I mean they're maybe billing 25 bucks for an appointment here. Okay. So when people are like, you know, the psychiatrist is just getting rich. Also, my last thing I want to say about Dr. Tops is she got a lot of crap for being like inexperienced because they kept saying you only had six weeks of experience. She was six weeks out of residency. Yeah. So she had years, years. But how much was in postpartum specifically? Well, there's very few postpartum specialists. And either way doesn't matter because the patient's seen a postpartum expert. No, I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01I'm just also when you're treating someone as a provider, it is on you to be in the evidence. And what does the updated evidence say about postpartum? Like, why I I I'm all about specialties, but why does it matter that she's been six weeks in and she doesn't know how to treat a postpartum?
SPEAKER_00She came to her with complaints of anxiety. It was like anxiety and insomnia, right? So I think a psychiatrist. So, and then she did see a specialist. So that's who we're talking about now. But anyway, or she saw people within this um postpartumic care, but we move on. I digress. I really was like, we gotta stay on track, it's so long, and I am guilty of taking us off. Sorry, sorry. So we're back on the prosecution's case. So she was treating Clancy for insomnia, intrusive thoughts, which is another thing. I don't think that there's a lot of clarity. The providers really clarified what intrusive thoughts are, yeah, either, which is a big issue because now we're like, we're suicidal thoughts. Was she calling these intrusive thoughts and they were suicidal thoughts? That's the question we don't know because everyone's just documented intrusive thoughts. Right. Intrusive thoughts, feeling numb, anxiety, depression, difficulty functioning, and concern regarding benzodidependence. Those were the the problems. She testified that she repeatedly came up with alternative treatment plans for Clancy, including a range of different medications, behavioral therapy, support groups, and meditation. She reported no suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation, psychosis, or mania, and claimed that during her appointments, Lindsay was coherent and engaged. In December, Dr. Tufts' records indicate that Lindsay had depression, intrusive thoughts, insomnia, feeling numb, and feeling that she's going to die and being close to suicidal thoughts, but not having suicidal thoughts. She recommended partial hospitalization, but Lindsay declined. She is documenting severe depression, but no psychosis. Mid-December, Lindsay notified providers that she was having intrusive thoughts and concern about harming herself. And so she went to Women and Infants Hospital to the postpartum program in Rhode Island. She was there for a day, and they said, Your symptoms are likely due to over medication. And you at this point, she had been started on seroquel. 300 milligrams. Oh my quil. Oh my gosh. So they said, You're over medicated, that's what's causing your symptoms. So you should go and stop your cerequel. Right. She was also seen, you said she should have talk therapy. So she was having talk therapy with Letitia Dukes, who is a counselor, she's a social worker, licensed therapist at Women and Infants Hospital. They spoke about her insomnia, her anxiety, her intrusive thoughts, but again, no suicidal plan.
SPEAKER_02Isn't it like standard to ask what the thoughts are telling you? Because when somebody's in a psychosis and they're hearing voices, you have to say, What are the voices telling you?
SPEAKER_01But she hasn't reported hearing not in a psychosis. Every single provider that has been seeing her is saying she's not psychosis.
SPEAKER_02But they're saying she has intrusive thoughts, but not asking a follow up. But I mean, I have intrusive. Don't we all have intrusive thoughts sometimes? But I yeah, but I'm like, is it anxiety intrusive thoughts?
SPEAKER_00It is like, is it hateful self and I think the key is too, if you believe that she was psychotic, they all agree. I think even the people who testified for the defense, if if she she was not in psychosis this whole time. Right. So she wasn't hearing voices. The the first report of voices being heard came weeks later and allegedly was the day of the death, right? So she was not seeing psychiatrists for three months and having hearing voices and no one was talking therapy.
SPEAKER_02Is she getting a specific type of therapy? Like, is she getting cognitive behavioral therapy? Like, if she are they working on different types, like, did they document any of that?
SPEAKER_00I wrote behavioral therapy, support groups, and meditation. That's what I said earlier. Okay. All right. But I'm no, it's okay. I'm just I'm going through who actually testified. So Letitia Dukes is a counselor though. Okay. She said, quote, she constantly worried something bad was gonna happen to her kids or something bad was gonna happen to her baby. They had four visits in December, and Lindsay reported having called a crite to her. She said, I called a crisis hotline twice this month. And when they asked me if I had suicidal ideations and a plan, and I told them no, they said they couldn't help me. Which I do also think goes back to a larger issue of the strains on our healthcare system. Like I do think if you're like, I need inpatient treatment, you should be able to get inpatient treatment within reason.
SPEAKER_02If somebody picks up the phone and dials a hotline number, that is a red flag. I agree.
SPEAKER_00But they are having what I have to assume. They're asking for help. It's a cry for help. What I have to assume is happening, which I is not to ask these specific questions. No, no, I think what I assume is happening is that there's not enough beds in these inpatient facilities for all these people who need help. Because why would they, why would they turn her away unless it was like they're not imminent, you're not imminently asking criteria because we only have 15 beds and we have 15 patients. And if we just let anyone in who's not, you know, who's feeling anxious and depressed, then how are we gonna serve all the people we have to? So they probably have to prioritize them and they say, Are you I'm again? I'm just guessing here.
SPEAKER_02You probably don't have this answer, but I'm gonna ask it just because I'm thinking it. Do hotlines keep track of how many times a specific caller calls them?
SPEAKER_00I mean, it sounds like she's volunteering, though. I would assume she said, Hey, this is my second time calling, because she's telling Letitia Dukes I called twice. And they told me that because I wasn't having an actual suicidal ideation with an actual plan, I didn't meet criteria. I'm just saying that I think part of this is a here's my question. I'm just thinking, as opposed to coming to the individual providers that they're coming for in this instance, there needs to be a bigger systemic issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. My question is like, I'm not judging. This is gonna sound judgy. Why would you call a crisis hotline unless it was a suicidal ideation? That's what and that's my question. I guess like she got to the point where she was it, was it like a she was terrified of like what people would say? And she was like, I am having these.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it does like she's very open. And I would have when they ask her, Are you having suicidal thoughts? and she said no, but but is immediately that's not a no, that's not a hundred percent no, so I have to treat that as a hundred percent yes. That's how as a for for a risk factor, like as when you're in like as a healthcare setting and you're asking somebody this and they say no, but you have to treat that as a yes in my mind. Yes, they're thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00I think too, if you think about her mother, her sister, her mother-in-law, they all testified for the defense and they all said she was horrible. She was reaching out for help, the moms were coming to stay. Yeah. Well, again, where Patrick was working into that conversation. But I don't think she was someone who was like hiding it, yeah, hiding her issues.
SPEAKER_02She fell through the cracks, is what it feels like.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, but it also feels like, again, if you're calling a crisis hotline, cause what was the point at which you were like, I need to call a crisis hotline? Yeah, you have to be like, I'm about to do something to these kids or about to do something to myself. So what is the yeah, yeah, I guess that I guess that would be my question is like, I don't think I would call a crisis hotline unless it was like, this is my last attempt. I need help, and this is this is my call for help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In January, she admitted herself to McLean Hospital for five day stay. So she had a five-day impatient stay. So Lindsay at that time apparently reported suicidal thoughts, had severe anxiety, couldn't sleep, and felt numb, but she denied thoughts of harming others. She displayed no signs of psychosis. She improved during the hospitalization. She was sleeping, she was cooperative, and at that time she was diagnosed with major depressive disorder, severe, without psychotic features. After those five days, she requested a discharge because she wanted to be home for her daughter's birthday. Yes. So they said, Well, you want to leave, you have reasons to live, including your family and children. You have no, like, do not appear to be an imminent risk to yourself or others. So they let her discharge. So the thing is that all of this test we're telling you about, this like extensive mental health treatment leading up, the it can all go both ways because the prosecution is arguing, like, she saw all these mental health providers and nobody saw signs of psychosis. So she must not have been psychotic and therefore she was capable of knowing right from wrong. Right. And she's responsible. But then the defense is looking at all these same witnesses, being like, but look at how sick how sick she was and how she was like just asking for help.
SPEAKER_01We all know somebody can be exposed to as much health care as they want, but if they don't want to do it, they're not gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But Lindsay Clancy seems like she really wanted help. She was really trying, was really trying for her kids. And that I think that is like what you need to take away from. It's not that it's not you can have amazing nursing care and still have a patient who is like, Well, Bobby don't do that.
SPEAKER_02With the prosecutor, is that like she must not have been that mentally ill because she was trying? And like, I don't think you can say that. Yeah, no, I don't think you can say that.
SPEAKER_00Also, I have to just say, I'm like, yeah, you guys, uh listeners, I love a good hairbow. Oh my god, and I love a good headband. And I feel like I can never again wear a hairbow. She has ruined the hairbows for me. She's like Professor Umbridge. Yeah. She's just ruined. She's giving. Yeah. Okay. So during this period, the prosecution also referenced journal entries on her phone that they take as proof that she resented her child and had a motive. Oh my God. Uh, and here's the quote, which I think you tell me what you think as the mother, Kate, because I think this is like a probably normal mother thought that you are now taking and using against her. Okay. She wrote in her, she kept journals like on her phone. I think I sort of resent my other children because they prevent me from treating Cal like my first baby. And I know that's not fair to them. I know that. I was feeling so depressed last evening when Cora and Dawson came home from school. I know it runs off on them. So we had a pretty rough evening. I want to feel love and connection with all my kids. And I feel like saying something like, I feel bad that I'm not giving him the same attention I gave Cora when she was an only child is like a reasonable thought thing for moms, I would think, to feel, right? Right. That's such a normal thought.
SPEAKER_01I think that that's like a very when you're like journaling, no one's supposed to read that in court and just yeah, read that aloud in court and then you're like being judged by like what this was what I was feeling in the moment. I also think it's a very healthy thing to like put a name to the feeling that you're having. It's not like sitting here saying like she also just said, I feel bad that I did not want them to come home because I wanted to spend more time with my baby. Yeah. And that I feel like that's taken out of context because the whole problem that she's had is that she doesn't feel connected to Callan. Cal Callan?
SPEAKER_02Callan.
SPEAKER_01So maybe they had a good day that day. And maybe she was like, Oh, I'm feeling something for this baby that I have not been able to feel anything for. And these two kids come home, and I have severed this spark of a connection that I've felt with this child that I've not been able to feel. So, no, I don't think that should be able to be used because it is again, it's a private thought that she probably never thought, like, hey, this is gonna come up again.
SPEAKER_02God I can't imagine like sitting in court and having somebody read that.
SPEAKER_00Right. They also used as evidence against her search history. And it's important, I'm gonna say, as we go.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a there's the question is some more questions to this.
SPEAKER_00Yes. We don't even know if she's the one who searched these terms or these questions because I did because yes. So some of the things that came up on January 20th, somebody, which they're alleging was her, Googled, can you treat a sociopath? And so the prosecution's alleging, like, look, she thought I might be a s a sociopath, and she wanted to know if it could be treated and and that that reflects awareness. And so that then she couldn't be, you know, held psychotic or whatever. Yeah. We don't know and we don't know that she even did this search. Right. And we don't know, maybe she was watching a show, right? And there was a sociopath like we don't know that she's talking about herself. She didn't say any, you know, Am I a sociopath? Making a lot of jumps here that it was her and that this is what there's too much doubt what that is used for evidence. January 19th, there were searches for psychosis, schizophrenia bipolar, and postpartum depression. The bipolar is interesting because she had wasn't it Dr. Jelata who was telling her she is bipolar? She had a couple in the end, so now in her inpatient medical setting, she's been diagnosed bipolar. Yeah. And so there's a lot of like, why wasn't this diagnosed earlier? It also sounds like she did have multiple providers who said you were bipolar. You might have bipolar, and she and Patrick said she's not bipolar. Right. So again, you have to have. Buy in from the patients.
SPEAKER_01And if you have a partner who's telling you you can't be bipolar, you're not gonna be, especially yourself, also there like a for bipolar gene, don't you have to prove that you have you've had a mania period too?
SPEAKER_00Well, we're kind of again getting getting off track here, but I think that the the thing that a lot of people think is that if you start an SSRI without a mood stabilizer on a bipolar patient, it's going to induce everyone, sort of has whenever everyone's at risk for this sort of like manic. But if you are bipolar, it's gonna be a much more profound manic episode. So they're saying if they started SSRIs without a mood stabilizer and she had two days without sleep, that that should have been a key to someone like wait, maybe she has bipolar. Um but again, it sounds like these providers all mention that to her. And shoot, they were kind of against and they kind of poo-pooed it. Right. And now that she's apparently in a mentally better place, she's being treated for bipolar. So I yeah, I think the search for bipolar could be like it came up in a doctor's appointment.
SPEAKER_01My gosh, do you know how many times I searched weird things on all the things?
SPEAKER_00I actually now census case, every time I Google something weird, and then I'm like, somebody's gonna subpoena this. Yeah. All the time when I text Kate and Colleen, I'm like, oh my God, I hope nobody ever subpoenas my dad. Yeah, I think the same thing. Oh no. Like, yeah. There were also searches about medications and potential ketamine therapy indicating that again, she understood psychiatric illness and she was like deliberately researching, so she must have been of clear mind. Right. Other searches were how to slit your throat to die, carotid artery spelled how? C A C-A-R-O-D-E-D.
SPEAKER_01I think it was C-O-R-R-O-D-E-D. That ain't a nurse.
SPEAKER_00And how to turn off airbags on Kia Sorrento, which the prosecution is claiming she was researching ways to kill herself leading up to this. So there was premeditation. How to turn off airbags? I'm yeah, on the Kia Sorrento, they had a Kia, like if she was trying to do something on the Kia. Like I'm I would just say if you're a medical provider and you don't know where your carotid artery is, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_01And if you can't know how to spell carotid artery, that's a bigger problem. Megan, we never told the audience how to spell carotid artery.
SPEAKER_00Oh, C-A-R-O-T-I-D.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00That's how you correctly spell it. Because we're medical providers, so we know how to spell it and we know where it's located. Yes. I'm feeling it right now.
SPEAKER_01In fact, anyone who is like A C L S, I can't imagine B L S. Yeah. Especially B L S. That's what they're like, check the karate pole. Lifeguard. Lifeguards. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she's a labor and delivery nurse. Like, there's no doubt in my mind she knew where it was. That's not her typing.
SPEAKER_00Um, so again, the they're called a rebuttal witness um because they do have experts who testified, we're gonna get to that she was in a psychotic state.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So after the defense rested, prosecution is now calling the rebuttal witnesses. So on Friday, we had Dr. Mack. He evaluated Lindsay and said that while he believed that she was in a depressive episode and was suicidal, he did not believe she was in a psychotic episode at the time of the crime and believes she knew right from wrong. Because he claims that while she was strangling these children, she said go with God. Okay, so he's saying if she's saying go with God, then that indicated to him that he knew the children were innocent when she killed them and that she was doing this like methodically. And there we go.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm gonna be honest. To strangle three children, one, two, three, that's methodical. Like strangling three kids is methodical. If it were like what the heck happened, and there's chaos, and then there's three kids down here, and also all of a sudden they all ended up dead, like that's methodical.
SPEAKER_00Emily, who I'm gonna who is a mental health expert and she testifies for the court, and she we referenced her before, she testifies, she does evaluations and testifies to the court about these patients. I mean, she would say too that you can be psychotic and still be like stepwise completing task, yeah, like in like a stepwise, which I think I've argued.
SPEAKER_01But they say, are they saying she's like in a manic phase at this point? Like if if she has been diagnosed with bipolar. Well, they're saying that there was there was a psychotic psychotic, she was hearing hearing voices, and she well, that's like the height of mania.
SPEAKER_02And people who are in psychotic breakdowns tend to be religious, not like like they tend to be like, God is telling me to do this. You know what I mean? Oh well, you can have a type of delusion that's yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00That's what I have for the prosecution's case. Okay. Here's my note that I inserted from Emily that I think probably kind of goes under the better discussion of the prosecution's point. She said, I do feel like the defense has missed important arguments by psychiatry around suicide risk assessment. They keep focusing on did she have a plan, but best practices would show that helplessness, hopelessness, passive suicidal ideations, etc., are better predictors of suicide than a plan. Also, defense has failed to point out that Lindsay is aware that if she reported a plan, she would have she would have been involuntarily hospitalized.
SPEAKER_01If Lindsay Clancy would have just said, I have a plan, she could have chucked.
SPEAKER_00She couldn't have just yeah, and I would that's what I kind of like. Do you guys think that the prosecution has proved no beyond a reasonable doubt that she was of sound mind when she did this? No. Moving on to the defense's argument.
SPEAKER_02The defense argument go big red watching him walk in solo with his bags, being like another 50 people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Here's my here's the thing for me, and like I know you were like, I'm not gonna talk about this, like it's get it's so dark. I what I can't imagine is like you have to strangle one kid at a time. Well, so and what well, here is the deal. Like, my five-year-old would be like, Mom, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Well, here is the here's the allegation. They were strangled with an exercise band. Right. And so it is either, and we're gonna talk about also holes, because there are holes in these stories, are not matching up, but allegedly the exercise band was tied around each of their necks, in which case she would not necessarily have to stand there and basically strangle them. Yeah. And the rumor, the the theory is that she brought the three-year-old down and she had Cora, the five-year-old, upstairs, but the baby did the kid, did the three-year-old, then brought like the five-year-old down and then did the baby, which, if that's how she did it, I mean, that is very forethought of like the five-year-old is gonna stop me. Right. And like that, yeah, that is very like thought out. And so the defense's argument. Defense argue that Lindsay experienced a combination of psychiatric illness, sleep deprivation, and inappropriate or over medication, which led to a psychotic episode. And I'm gonna just outline the civil suits because I think the civil suits that are filed right now pretty much outline the defense's argument. So there's currently a civil suit from Patrick Clancy, and we're gonna talk about how much money he's made off this whole thing. And the a civil suit filed by Lindsay Clancy.
SPEAKER_01I I think what people don't understand is like we treat what's called delirium in the hospital all the time with these patients that like don't sleep for days and days and days, and they become they're crazy, so out of touch with reality. Also so strong. So strong, super strength, so out of touch with reality. A little lady fact that she suddenly just like had delirium, like she was delirious.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they call they're calling 911 and they're like, this person is trying to kill me right now. And it's like that is so far from right what is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so in January of 2026, Patrick Clancy filed a wrongful death suit on behalf of himself and his deceased children, claiming wrongful death, medical malpractice, and negligence. The defendants in this case are Jennifer Tufts, the psychiatrist, the first one I told you about, and her employer Astor Mental Health, as well as Rebecca Golotta, the mental health NP, and uh her employer South Shore Hospital System. Wait, that was Patrick's? This is Patrick's claim. And it says, quote, in this in this claim, indeed, the bevy of diverse and powerful medications they misprescribed, coupled with their abject failure to appropriately monitor Lindsay, resulted in Lindsay's mental health deteriorating to the point of suicidal ideation and requiring inpatient care. Ultimately, the defendant's negligent treatment of Lindsay, including their complete failure to recognize and address the radical erosion of her mental health, resulted in tragedy, namely allegations that Lindsay took the lives of her children. If defendants had not acted negligently and rather had provided adequate care, it is more likely than not that Patrick and Lindsay's children would still be alive today. At the same time, Lindsay Clancy filed a medical malpractice negligence claim against 11 defendants, so the same four as above, as well as McLean Hospital, Women and Infants Hospital of Rhode Island, and five other providers. And her complaint alleges that the provider's treatment resulted in catastrophic failure to diagnose her bipolar disorder and instead subjected her to a disorganized course of multiple medications that triggered a psychotic break. The complaint alleges that antidepressants repeatedly triggered severe insomnia and activation. They claim that after starting Zoloft and later Prozac, Lindsay experienced activation going 48 hours without sleep, elevated psychomotor activity, physical energy, and behavioral drive seen during manic or hypomanic states. So that's what I mentioned. You can have a mild degree of activation with the initiation of an SSRI, and that's when you kind of get this burst of energy. But if you have bipolar and your brain is overwhelmed with serotonin, you could go into a manic episode, and that's kind of what people theorized happened with her. She also claims that medications were increased despite Patrick warning providers that she was dramatically worse. Patrick allegedly reached out to her providers asking if they could stop all meds and start from scratch because she was, quote, 10,000 times worse taking the medications, yet they continued to titrate up the drugs. It further alleges that providers failed to obtain a complete psychiatric history, failed to adequately coordinate her care, discharged her from McLean despite ongoing severe symptoms and limited insight, and continued treating her as an outpatient even after providers knew about the hallucinations and suicidal homicidal thoughts. The suit also claims that like what they were labeling as intrusive thoughts were actually auditory hallucinations commanding her to kill herself and her children. And I think we've talked about a lot of that. Like I do think there was an attempt for bipolar diagnosis and they weren't amenable to it. Um, I do think that we talked about SSRIs really are the first line, but maybe when she had this activation that should have been looked at twice. I we talked about, I think, the complete history. Again, you can only you can only do what your patient tells you. Right. If they're not if they're not sharing that they saw another provider, then how are you supposed to, and that that provider is not in a system that you can see? Right. How are you supposed to know?
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna ask this question. Okay. And I know I can Google it. Um, you know how when insurance is trying to profit? And so, like, for example, with podiatrists, podiatrists make money by preventing amputations. So if they can prove that they can heal your wound without cutting your foot off, they make more money. Like they're accredited, they get better points for being a podiatrist. Do mental health providers get that by keeping people out of inpatient stays? Are they in in a in a way incentivized to prevent hospitalizations? And again, systemic problem.
SPEAKER_01We'll have patients, mental health, behavioral health patients sitting down in the ED.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because we can't take them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This is my AI answer. Okay. Because I haven't had a chance to look this up. No, that's fine. Mental health providers are generally not financially incentivized to keep patients out of inpatient treatment. In fact, many insurance models, traditional fee-for-service systems, and hospital loan networks create an economic pressure or incentivize higher levels of care. Okay. Uh, while managed care and utilization reviews try to limit it. Okay. That's the AI answer. That's AI.
SPEAKER_01AI, they're they're feeding AI or something.
SPEAKER_00No, don't because they don't. Yeah. AI is in on it. Yeah. Everyone can agree she was in a mental health crisis and was reaching out for help, right? Right. So, but if the argument is, as the defense is pointing, that like she was in psycho psychosis, a psychotic state, and was hearing voices, then the question is when did these auditory hallucinations begin? Because in the filing, the civil case, they're saying that what she was calling intrusive thoughts were actually auditory hallucinations, right? For her complaint, she says on January 1st. So again, to be clear, nobody, her husband, her mental health providers, she did not tell anybody about any voices until about two weeks after the crime. And we'll talk about how those came to be. Okay. So it's not like anyone knew there were voices and they failed to hospitalize her or whatever. Okay.
SPEAKER_02But they were documenting intrusive thoughts. Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_00But maybe that's what she was calling them. Yes. Yeah. I know. I know what you're saying. Carlene dig deeper. Just clarifying. Yes. She was documenting, but I mean, I would say I have intrusive thoughts sometimes when I'm just like my anxiety starts spinning. I'm like, right. But yes, it I would hope they dug deeper and asked her what those intrusive thoughts were. I think the problem too with this is like I have a lot of questions, especially when I get into theory three, about like the investigation and what happened. And because it's like a there's so much sealed with this, and because it's like an active case, I'm not getting a lot of like I would just love to have infinite time and all the documents and just like dig, yeah dig in.
SPEAKER_01But and this is why we always say Megan should have been a lawyer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Megan's Megan should have done anything. She's our researcher. Okay. So her this complaint, the civil complaint, she says on January 1st, she heard a voice telling her, you will never be the same. The only option is to die. So she said she heard this voice January 1st, but again, no one knew this, no one documented. This is a a post-crime admission. So can we even, if you're going into this like she did it and she's trying to mount herself a defense, can we even believe it? I don't know if we can. On February 6th, the defense-retained forensic psychologist, Dr. Zeizel, met Zizel. So he comes in, no witnesses. So all we have is him and her. Yes. And he allowed her to use his phone to call Patrick if he could remain on speakerphone. So everyone's like, this is a little weird. Like this was after the crime. Two weeks after the crime. Yeah. It's a little weird because why, if I have a patient who is under arrest, I am treating them, and the police are sitting there with them, but I'm still treating them. No one is leaving the room to allow me to treat my patient. Right. So it's a little weird to me that he got one-on-one time with her. Yeah, that's weird. And it's a little weird to me that he she's under arrest and he's letting her use his personal cell phone. Right. But oh, it was his phone? Yeah. So he said, You can call Patrick if I can remain on speakerphone. So when she called and she connected with Patrick, she said that she'd heard a loud, demanding male voice that allegedly told her, This is your last chance. Kill your children so you can kill yourself. She claimed she lost all control and was in a dreamlike state. So during this current trial, investigators did discuss this theory that he's hired by the defense. How do we know he didn't go in that she has up until this point never made a mention of hearing voices? Yeah. If he's if they he starts planting. Yeah. So how do we know this is your defense? This is the argument. I'm not saying I believe this. I'm just we're giving the facts for a discussion. Yeah. So there's this theory that maybe he influenced or planted the idea of voices. And they did say they asked the police sergeant Daniel Lawler, who testified, if that was a theory. And he was like, we did talk about it, but there was no evidence that Zizel actually coached her. It's just something we thought about. But again, no one heard the conversation. Right. How do we know the male voice wasn't Patrick's? Well, that's theory three. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, part of me, when I'm thinking about the three kids, I'm thinking somebody's gotta be wrangling them.
SPEAKER_00So they just put a TV on. Some of these kids just that's true. Zone out in front of the TV. And then they had like the pastoral care, the chaplain. Oh, Father Bob. Huh? Father Bob. Kavanaugh was a female.
SPEAKER_02Oh. And she was really There's a priest, too. There's a priest that the prosecutor was like, we want to see every person who's visitor. Oh. And he goes, Father Bob. It's Father Bob. We can bring Father Bob in. Oh. Sorry. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, they brought in Kavanaugh. Yeah, I know. The blonde girl, yeah. She remembered, quote, vividly the first thing that Lindsay Clancy was able to say to her after the breathing tube was removed. This is her quote. She said to me as I held her hand to comfort her, I am so glad my children are safe. She said, I replied theologically to Lindsay. I said, Lindsay, your children are safe. They are safe in heaven with God. Kavanaugh claims it. Now she saw her 14 times over the course of her hospitalization. She said that Lindsay Clancy told her that she had heard a persistent male voice. Quote, she alluded to having heard a voice, and the voice, according to Lindsay, told her that if she did not follow the command, neither she nor her children would be safe. And she said, again, these conversations about the voice came up several times during the course of these visits while at Brigham and Women's. Now, on cross-examination, they point out Kavanaugh left notes with all of her visits. Nowhere did she document hearing a voice. And I'm it's not clear to me when she first heard, like, if this happened, did it happen after January, after February 6th, when she met with Dr. Zeizel? Or did she, or did it happen before she met with like there's really there's no documentation with any proofproof, and they didn't really ask that question. Um, they just said she kept very detailed notes and never once did she comment on the police. Interesting. So then after the defense rested, prosecution can have rebuttal witnesses, and that's who Dr. Mack was. Yes. So Dr. Philip Resnick was a defensive star witness. He's a highly regarded forensic psychiatrist. He has testified in a lot of other big name cases, like Andrea Yates, and he has extensive experience with philosopide, postpartum psychiatric illness, and insanity defenses. He evaluated Lindsay in May of 2023. He believed that Lindsay was psychotic when she killed her children. He diagnosed the episode as postpartum psychosis in the context of bipolar disorder and severe postpartum psychiatric illness. He testified that Lindsay believed she was protecting her children by killing them, that they would be better off dead and in heaven with her than alive without her. And so what he's saying is like Lindsay's perception of reality had become so distorted that she believed killing her children was correct or protective. So she cannot have been of like of sound mind. Right. Right. So that's that's the defenses case that has been outlined. Yeah. What do you guys think about that?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think it's a good defense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I had just had this thought. Share it. My intrusive thought was like what if she did plan it? And what if everything leading up was part of the plan? Well, we've and that's why she called the crisis hotlines and kept saying, I'm having intrusive thoughts. Part of me is like, I'm sorry, but you're a nurse.
SPEAKER_02I just you should know. When we get to the third conspiracy here, when we start talking more about Patrick, I think that's that negates what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00What people are leaning toward is that maybe Patrick set up the spiral.
SPEAKER_01There's too much suspicion around him and lack of oh, I definitely still think Patrick did it, but I think if you were to argue this was premeditated, then it would be because all of this doesn't make sense. Like, why are people not making why are people saying she was fine, she was fine, she was fine, and yet the the the evidence is saying she wasn't fine.
SPEAKER_00I don't think anyone thinks she was fine, again, to be clear.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think no, I don't I don't I agree, but I also think people are also documenting like she's not psychotic, she just seems she actually seems well adjusted. She's saying she's anxious. Like that's that's what people are documenting a lot of times. So if you want to I I think if you want to argue that she she did all of this, that is the argument you're looking at, not like that she just had a psychotic break. Because that I I think personally, either she either had a psychotic break and she killed her kids, or Patrick did it. I don't think she's a psychopath, but it seems like all the prosecution is kind of going towards this, like she she's evil, she's bad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. There's the other thing too. I think that this is so horrific. It is really hard for us to believe that a mom would just like knowingly do this. Yeah. So I do think that part of it too is it makes it easier for us to be like, oh, it must have been in psychosis, or it must have been the husband. Right. Because we just cannot imagine doing this to your children. No.
SPEAKER_02But but seeing the aftermath and all the suspicion around her husband, like I just also not innocent.
SPEAKER_01Okay. But also looking at her, like, she is absolutely correct.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Yeah. The amount of pauses they had to take in court just so she could like get through the sobbing. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Although, but then, you know, Kay would say if she's a sociopath who's masking. But you can't fake well, I don't know. I don't know. I think to this point, and again, we're gonna go into the conspiracy theory. Um, but I would think to this point, again, I keep flip-flopping back and forth. I'm pretty sure she was in a state of psychosis, she was sleep-deprived, she was on all these different medications. I can believe that she heard a voice that I don't know why, I don't know what her motive would be to just like kill her children because she's anxious. Right.
SPEAKER_01Especially at a minimum, I would say anxiety stemmed from something happening to the kids.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yes. Her fear was like, like she once, this is what they're saying, she was looking at the camera and and Cora was crying when Cora was the only child. Right. And she called her husband, Patrick, and he didn't answer. So she called 911. And people are like, look at how controlling she was. That's anxiety. But I'm like, or she was so worried about something being wrong with her daughter. Because her husband's not a good trustworthy partner. Yeah. So I don't know. I would say to this point, to our discussion, uh, I don't think the prosecution has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in a you know, clear state of mind. Right.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_00And criminally responsible for this murder. So, based on the evidence I have seen on the trial, at this point, if I was in the jury, I would have to say no, not guilty. Right. But let's go in, and here's Thing too. I bought big into this. Um, Patrick did it theory theory, three theory three. Patrick did it, but as I investigated, I'm able you a lot of the Instagram TikTok stuff is not real. Oh, so I'm gonna get go through some of those and we will prove or debunk. Yeah, I will say at a minimum, we can all agree he was a shit husband, he was a shitty partner. Yes, yeah, because while this is going on, he's testifying that she was having such all these mental health struggles. What was Patrick doing? Going skiing, going to kick. He dropped her at inpatient at inpatient treatment and went skiing. Right. Like he is traveling to New York, to California. Um, he is still going to dinners with his friends, brunches, remarried and we'll talk about that in a moment. That's not quite that's not entirely accurate. But my point is either way, and he's sitting there saying she's not bipolar. Right. He didn't know and now he's suing. He didn't know his wife. Yeah, and now he's suing that they didn't. So I think Edaman and we can all agree he he probably was not the most supportive.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00But let me tell you about the the social media allegations. So the our third theory is did Lindsay even do it? Because people are like, you know what? Reddington could stand up there in his closing statement and say, the state has proven that Lindsay was insane at the time of murders, but has failed to prove that Lindsay herself completed the murders.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's what people are saying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So again, I think the problem with all of this is like the evidence, even what we're talking about for it, can really go either way, right? You can say, like, look, she had all this mental health treatment, so she must not have been psychotic, or you could say, look, she too much, too much treatment. Yeah. And the same can be said for this. Like he was in the he was involved in her psychiatric care. Does that mean that he was overbearing and too involved? Was he setting something up by being involved? Was he being a supportive husband? Like, it's just like a lose-lose, however you interpret it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Mash in her meds. Okay, so let's start. I think the reason that people were like, what's up with this dude? As we were, was day one and two of testimony, and he testified with his timeline. And I gave you sort of what that was in the prosecution's case. And there's holes. There are holes. So he he claimed he left the house at 5 15 p.m. to go to CVS. CVS is a three-minute drive. How long did it take him to get there? 20 minutes. 17 minutes. That's crazy. He arrived at CVS at 5.32. That's when we saw him on CTV. Right. Right. So he said before he left his house at 5.15, he sent an email from his laptop. That email was sent 526. At 524.
SPEAKER_01524.
SPEAKER_00So that messes the whole time. And then he was like, well, maybe it was for my phone. But this messes the whole timeline up. Right. So he's leaving at 524. Okay, which only just narrows the by messing the time a little bit up, it narrows the window in which she could have done all these things that she allegedly did. Yes. A minute after arriving at CVS, he called Lindsay to ask her what medication he was supposed to buy.
SPEAKER_02Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00One minute, such a one minute later she called him back, and they had a 14-second call in which she asked if generic was okay, and she said yes, but then he didn't buy generic. He brought band brand name after all that, which was weird. Also, why does she really care about Corey's constipation if she's gonna kill the Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, um the the prosecution would argue it's part of the plan.
SPEAKER_0020 minutes later, he showed up at 3V on surveillance to pick up the food. That's 12 minutes longer than the drive should have been. And what do you guys think about those pictures?
SPEAKER_01He's in a completely different outfit, isn't he? Completely different outfit. Why did he change?
SPEAKER_00He's wearing in one, he has like a white shirt and a half zip half zip and boots, and in one, he's got a full zip and tennis shoes. Yeah. And in CVS, he looks like he's carrying an apple watch, which we'll get into the apple watch. That's a whole other area of confusion. And then it looks like in the one he has like straight hair and the one he has curly, and he has curly hair. And I do, when you see the side by side of his friend, I mean, I can't believe if he did this, I cannot believe these side theories that like his current wife or his best friend were involved because I don't know how okay.
SPEAKER_01If the current wife was involved, Lindsay Clancy would be dead. Also, we would she would know how to That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00Also, I mean Kate and Colleen are my ride or dies. All the time I'm like, I don't know anyone who's a ride or die like you. And I feel like if I was like, hey, Kate, I need help killing my husband and three children, Kate would be like, no, thank you. Goodbye, Earl. She might goodbye, Earl, but I don't think she would goodbye. I would goodbye.
SPEAKER_02I would goodbye hurt somebody, but I wouldn't goodbye kill somebody.
SPEAKER_01I'd say those black-eyed peas. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Kate might help me with an abusive husband, but she would this is gonna come back also when when they when they peanut my text messages and my Google search and then this podcast episode, we're fine. Yeah. No, I feel like if I was like, my husband's abusive, Kate might help me out there. But if I was like, and let's take out my three kids, I feel like Kate would be like, No, and we're done.
SPEAKER_01How about you send the three kids to me, Megan?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I just like one thing that Patrick like I'm not asking for permission, I'm coming to get your kids for Patrick to be crazy and do this, but I just cannot believe that he got buy-in from one of his buddies. But yeah, it does look interesting when you look at the side-by-side picture. It looks very similar. In which case he had a friend who came in and helped him with this timeline. Right. But yes, why the outfit changed? That's not been explained to us. Right. Okay. At 6 09, he returned home. So we have a 45-minute window when this crime was allegedly committed. And he sort of gave conflicting responses about what happened when he arrived home. So first he said he pulled up into the driveway. He saw her car there, which would make sense because he actually would have had to walk past her car. He was right next to it, walk past it to get into the door. They got he went in the back door or the side door. And so at one point he testified to that. He pulled up, he saw her car, and he answered in the affirmative when asked that if both vehicles were in the driveway. Later, he said that he entered the house and it was quiet. So he called her on the phone because he hadn't seen her car, because it was dark out and her car was black. But he just said he saw it's like, what's the story, sir? Right. Right? Anyway, he claims that he approached his own bedroom and found it locked from the inside. He had to unlock it. He saw blood everywhere sprayed like a hose, and the window was open in the bed askew. He fled outside and found her at the bottom of the window with cuts to her wrists and her neck. He claims he attempted to call 911, but he experienced a brief delay because his phone was flipping between Wi-Fi and 911. Experts have claimed that that can't happen. Right. But if you call 911, it will go through whether or not you have service or anything. Correct. Yeah. Also, why was it flipping to Wi-Fi? Also, you sent an email earlier. Right.
SPEAKER_02Also, I'm like, you're in ducks where you're not in the fucking boonies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The security and nanny cams were all down that day. But again, this go this can go to like, did she turn them off? Right, right. Or it could go to did he turn them off? He turned them off. Right. Or the Wi-Fi was down. But again, you sent an email and you were doing work all day from the downstairs computer. So again, I just am I it just seems like at a minimum this wasn't investigated, but then I'm like, maybe it wasn't. We just haven't seen any of those police reports. No, I think what happened is they believed what he said.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's why. I agree with you, Megan. I think that if there is a scene of a crime and there are three, but we saw this with Jean Bonet. They didn't do it the right way. They're not doing it the right way. It should have been completely shut down and it should have been a murder investigation from the beginning. But they just immediately took that this guy, Patrick, was like, my wife said he killed she killed the kids and then tried to kill herself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, why is that? I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just trying to be because it seems like the way the story, the facts I'm presenting, it seems like there was zero police investigation and they took one man's word and that was it. But again, maybe in which case I'd like to see them. I'd like them to be released after this hearing. Because you would think it would be brought up in court at this point.
SPEAKER_02That's not the point of this court. Like this case is about her insanity.
SPEAKER_00So either someone was premeditating this by turning off the cams, or she just it was really bad luck. I don't know. So we didn't get to hear the 911 call because it was sealed. So the only people people who heard it were Well, didn't he? No. His phone records? Yeah. We're gonna debunk that. Not true. 911 call. So the people who heard it were like, oh my god, it was awful. And actually, most of the vloggers are like, if you heard this, you wouldn't have a question about his guilt. Like it was so terrible to hear. But allegedly he'd called 911 and then he found her and he was talking to her while 911 was on the phone. He claims he was like, What happened? And she said I tried to kill myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But no one reports having heard that. Right. Who was listening to 9-1 call. And then he said he asked the question.
SPEAKER_02The jury is allowed to listen to it, just not in court.
SPEAKER_00No, everyone listened to it in court, but it's air. Okay. So that like the reporters who were in court, okay. They heard it. So that's we're getting some of this testimony. That's like, if you heard it, it would have been terrible. But he didn't want the public to then he said, Where are the kids? And she said, basement. And uh again, this whole thing I've been like, she was unresponsive three minutes later when the when the 9-1 got there. Right. We talk about her injuries. I don't know how she could have spoken. Right. So where to believe that she just confessed to this guy. Right. And then that was it. There are people online who heard it who said that they could hear basement. Oh, okay. But again, I can't hear it to prove it. I don't know. Right. Kind of, so some people are like, we heard nothing. Some people are like, oh, you could hear basement. Okay. But his version of events is that she said basement and then he ran downstairs. And when he ran downstairs, he found the kids. So again, within four minutes of this phone call, before he finds her, he he calls on one, he's talking to her. EMS arrived. Per his testimony, after walking downstairs, he discovered all three of his kids deceased with exercise bands wrapped around each of their necks and tied in a knot. Two in one room and the baby in the office. He said he then untied each of the knots. But then you'll see the prosecution later testified it was just wrapped, it wasn't tied. So like he said it was tied. He said it was tied. The prosecution is the prosecutors are like, oh, it was wrapped around the neck. So I'm like, you guys don't even know what your story is. Yeah. But the other thing that's that's going around online is that he was a sailor and these were like really difficult knots. Right. But the way he described it, it was like a knot before you tie a bow. No bow, but like you're tying your shoe. Yeah. And that's doesn't sound like a complicated knot to me.
SPEAKER_02And if it's if it's an extra, if it's like a rubber exercise band, a regular knot is gonna hold on those if you pull it tight enough. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like the rubber wrapped around a couple times. Anyway, the point is I'd like to debunk this wholesaler thing, except it's not even clear. The prosecution doesn't even know how these knots were found. Right. Because he he untied them. He says he untied them. Prosecution presented a story that they were wrapped without being untied tied. And we and the pictures are sealed because he didn't want any photos of the children, which I get. I mean, help I get you it, get it as a father. I also get it if you were involved. Right. The wounds, because these are suspicious. Yeah. Okay. Wounds are very suspicious. So she had a neck wound. Some speculate that if one was to slice her neck and was right-handed, you would start from the left, you go this way, and you would drag the knife to the right side. Right. But from the court documents, it appears that Lindsay began on her right side. That's crazy. Which would see more. So she's using her left hand or someone else.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Some uh another person who's a righty.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we go right to left. Yes. Go right to left on somebody else.
SPEAKER_00That's crazy. But I don't know. Apparently she doesn't know how to spell carotid or where her cor corroded artery is. Yeah. I don't know. Then she had these wrist wounds.
SPEAKER_02The wrist wounds were actually very superficial. Well, they went on and on about superficial because they wanted to say she didn't try hard enough to kill herself. But if it was exposed adipose, that's immediately a full thickness wound. She'd cut through every layer of skin. That's a solid attempt.
SPEAKER_01The other thing is Why did she go horizontal?
SPEAKER_00Well, yes. Yeah. Because everyone non-medical knows. Down the river. Yes. And if you're medical, you should definitely know that. Yes. So I could agree that maybe the wrists were either someone who didn't know any better. Right. Or someone who wasn't really trying. I mean, I can see that, but I'm like, how do we know it wasn't someone else who did this to her? Right. Okay. Okay. Then her toxicology, Lindsay's toxicology, does not show an overdose. She had multiple psychiatric medications in her system, including her tazepine, it's rhymorol, lamotragine, that's lamyctyl, trazodone, seroquil, and benzodiazepines, but the forensic toxicology testified that the concentrations were generally not toxic, uh, elevated seroquil levels, but otherwise everything was sort of within a uh normal range. But that's quite a cocktail. Right. And they were crushed in a glass of lemonade. That's crazy. Yeah, that's weird. Do you really think this 32-year-old just taking all these psych meds is crushing her pills of lemonade? No. Lemonade is crazy. Yeah. And it wasn't completely, so there was some some still left. It wasn't completely consumed. So that's just a little suspicious. It sounds like maybe someone who was trying to unknowingly drug her would do that. And maybe if she had actually consumed the whole lemonade, she would have reached toxic levels. Right. But she didn't drink all the lemonade. And maybe that's why someone had to come take additional steps. Right. Right. And then the fall. There are questions about the fall. Um, about whether she went like headfirst. Yeah. So she's they're claiming that she like dangled because of blood streaks down the side. Um, the the the crush of her neck in defense claim she went head first. That's how she got her Jefferson fracture, and that's how her thyroid was crushed. Right. I guess I don't. I feel like if I was jumping out a window, you gotta dive out, right? I guess that's how they're saying she did it. But I'm just thinking, I'm like, that's not how I would do, but I guess also my goal wouldn't be to die, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I guess I yeah, I guess if you're jumping out, it seems crazy to just dive out a window. For me, I guess I would just climb out and be like, this is it. And then you just jump.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe I dive still. And you want to go belly flop first because you want to die quick.
SPEAKER_00That's what I'm saying. Or maybe but maybe belly flop. I don't know. The other thing is too, though, with this like this bed that was sort of moved against the window. Right. So people like, if someone was passed out, maybe right from drugs that had been given, and you were trying to push them out the window, you might use that bed as leverage. And as you like push them out the window, they might go head first. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02But if she went feet first, how are they explaining her neck injuries?
SPEAKER_01Wait, so a good question. She was like dangling by her hands out the window.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because they're arguing that she didn't actually want to kill herself. Oh, okay. This was all staged. Yeah. And how did she get the neck? And there were blood streaks on the side. So, like well, how did the blood streaks happen then if she just goes at head first? There's a lot of questions, which again is like maybe if you're someone's trying to force someone over the side unconscious. I guess she would be kind of hanging against the side.
SPEAKER_02As you're like, I can't get you over because you're dead weight, right? And like he's already crushed her neck or something.
SPEAKER_01I mean, on the side there was there was something on on social media that was like wounds on her neck and her crushed thyroid is like Could have been from the windowsill.
SPEAKER_00Somebody shutting her head in the windowsill. Like, oh how was her body temperature 82 degrees? Let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, here's this is what I would like to say before you even I do not buy the 82 degrees being a reason why Patrick killed her, and this is why. Tell us why. Because if any type of trauma patient who has blood loss attempt drops, their your biggest concern is fluid resuscitation and not letting your patient become hypothermic. So if you have blood loss and injury, you might be hypothermic. And if you're in the snow, you might be even more hypothermic.
SPEAKER_00So per I'm with you. Well, if you have neurogenic shock too. Yes, I think she had a thoracic fracture as well. If she had an element of neurogenic shock, usually that leads to coiculothermia, which is when your body temperature regulation fails, and so you just reach ambient temperature. Uh and on top of that means what the yes, the 32 degrees that it was outside. Yeah. You match your investment. And she also had hemorrhagic shock, like you said, and there was this cardiac arrest as well, like it caused a cardiac arrest. And I think there was like this one temperature documented. So we don't even know that could have been someone did like an axillary temperature that wasn't right, and then no one rechecked it. It could have been, was it like an hour later?
SPEAKER_02I also don't trust like the stabilization she got at the first hospital felt like trash. Oh, you said they didn't even see a CSF. Yeah, great. That felt like trash.
SPEAKER_00Here's what is interesting about this, though. One of the neighbors is a kid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He looked out the window at 5 50 p.m. and saw her laying there and called his dad and said, The neighbors on the ground. So that is 20 minutes before Patrick gets there. Patrick gets there, which could go for again, this we're just making our window narrower and narrower to do all these things. 25 minutes. So how did he send the email? 25 minutes to do all these things could mean if we really believe that that was him running his errands. Right. I mean, it confirms, but also she laid there for 20 minutes before he got there at 609 and talked to her. No way. And then also the other weird thing was that like eight-month-old Callan, he got to the hospital. So they were still, you know, no one's dead till they get to the hospital. They're getting resuscitated. They get to the hospital. The older two children are declared dead. The eight-month-old Callan, he had ACLS done. So from the time they arrived to the hospital, 10 more minutes of ACLS, they get return of spontaneous circulation. Does we would have to believe he couldn't have been dead that long? He was dead for over 30 minutes and then they got rosks. No way. So if you're that so that also has people thinking, like, was were the times all skewed? Like, did he kill her first? Right. Or try to kill her first. And then the and then took care of again, these are I'm not, I'm not making allegations. We're just having conversations here about the theories that are circulating. Yeah. We have this theory about the affair, okay, that Patrick Clancy was having an affair. He might have still been, I'm less convinced he's having an affair after I researched this, but he may have been. I don't know. I'm gonna give you the facts. But I can see why if this is a theory, it's not really in anyone's best interest to bring it up, right? Because if the defense is like you had an affair, that's a motive, right? For her to be like, well, F you, I'm gonna kill the kids, kill the kids. Um the prosecution just makes him look like a shitty husband. So he very well may, they may, everyone may know this. The police may know this, and everyone just thought, like, let's not talk about this. Yeah. But the thing that's circulated online is that he was having an affair, he was doing all these traveling, he was traveling to New York, and that um we do know, proof proof, four months after the crime, Patrick moved to New York City. And we know that like in November he'd had a work trip to New York City uh for two nights, and people are like, that's weird. Two nights? Why didn't you call it two days? Why was it two nights? Because maybe it was to see his girlfriend. Right. And he ended up with this doctor, Rachel Dannis, who lives in New York City. So this theory is like he was already with her, and then four months after his whole family is destroyed, he goes to live with his girlfriend. Right. I told you those phone records are not sealed. That's a that's fake, but I can't see them. So please share the evidence with us. Patrick remarried Rachel Dannis. He did not get remarried until April 2026, which does not mean they weren't together for three years. Right. But they did not get married a year after. They got married April 26th, and the rumors circulated online are that they have a child. In some places, there claims that she's pregnant with another child. I could not find any proof proof of that. In fact, there were several news sources claiming that they didn't have any children. But she's a doctor. She's a doctor of reproductive specialists, and she has frozen her egg. She talked about that in an interview. But yes, and there's all these side, these kind of out there side theories that like she was researching drugs that may have been used to help attempt to kill Lindsay.
SPEAKER_01Feels like Alpine divorce.
SPEAKER_00Well, and then there is this other weird maybe just coincidence, that in February of 2023, they were both in Costa Rica. Yeah. He left a review on all trails, and she was tagged in a photo with friends. Right. And so, but there's no proof. People are like, these actually were different parts of Costa Rica, and we have no proof they were together, but it is weird. It's also weird. I don't know. Maybe we haven't experienced a loss of our entire family. Maybe he was like, I just gotta be with nature. Right. And get away from things and clean my air. It does seem like kind of an odd thing to be doing. Right. I don't know. We can't judge, we haven't lived there, but that is a theory that's circulating that this is all proof that they were having an affair. And I don't know that they're I would not be surprised if they were having an affair, but I didn't find any like proof proof. Right.
SPEAKER_01What is Patrick Clancy like in real life? That's what I want to know. We don't have a lot about his character.
SPEAKER_02There was a couple influencers, like people who on TikTok uh influencers because they like psychoanalyze behavior or whatever. And a lot of people were like, his behavior points to like lying and his body movements and blinking a lot. It all points towards he's not telling the truth. Yeah. Which I thought was interesting. The DNA on the exercise bands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we have um the DNA. Hold on. Uh only his DNA was found. Yes, but I don't know that her de they couldn't definitively say, I guess, that her DNA was on the bands. Yeah. But um I kind of also feel like his DNA was. Yeah. He untied them allegedly, or didn't I don't know what happened. Wait, Megan, was it DNA on the exercise bands or was it like his fingerprints? Yeah, her fingerprints weren't on the bands, which I don't put much into because I mean that's it's kind of a weird material to be able to get fingerprints off, right? Because it's like rubber. The DNA was a little bit more mixed. It sounds like they were kind of combinations of everyone's DNA. Um but I mean Yeah, I just don't put much stock in the whole DNA uh fingerprint part of part of things. Part of the conspiracy. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Do you have stronger thoughts on that, uh Colleen? I just think it's interesting that like each individual kid and Patrick's was.
SPEAKER_00Um the other thing is that he claimed when he left the house that they were sitting on the couch eating chicken nuggets and green beans, which people are like she's gonna kill him and she's like worried about getting them great beans. But the crime scene photos show green beans, the CVS bag and the kids' plates are on top of the CVS bags, and you would think he comes home from CVS, he would put the bags on top of the counter. Right. And that the plates would already be on top of the counter. But it's just like a weird if she like cleaned up from dinner or whatever, right? Why would he his CVS bag being down before the plates implies that there was some sort of plate cleanup after he returned?
SPEAKER_01I don't know, maybe he like put the CVS bag down, looked on the couch, was like, huh, why are these plates here? Cleaned them up, threw them on, throw them like walked back around where the kids threw them on top of the seat. I don't know. Okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Their stomachs were all empty on autopsy. Oh, that doesn't make sense. That's weird, which is weird. But this that also feels like the headache of the of the stomachs and the John Bennet, that also I still like the pineapple, and yeah, I don't know. So that's just something weird that like does this support or not support the story. And then the last thing I want to talk about is the Apple Watch. So is there any other information I have not covered that you guys have seen on not that I can remember. The Apple Watch data, and I don't know what to make of it. Her Apple Watch data. Yes. Yeah. I hope you can guys can find some clarity in this. So, first of all, one of these theories is well, if you go back to like, did he do the crime and then go leave and run the errands for an alibi or something? Yeah, right. To get on camera. He called her and there was this 14-second call, but her phone was never uh unlocked. So one of the theories is that she answered this phone call from her Apple Watch. Okay. But then people think if you look in that picture of him in CVS, he's not wearing an Apple. He had a watch in his hand. That's what it would be her watch. So the one of the theories, like, did he take this Apple Watch and To make it be like, look, we had a whole conversation. Yes. Oh. The Apple Watch also showed that her heart rate dropped 110 to 120, like all day. And then all of a sudden it dropped into the 50s. And then was shut off. And yes, and then it was shut off. And so this is like right before she kills the whole family, or her age just drops. No, that's her being killed. Or drugged. Yeah. Or or did the phone get did the watch get put on his wrist? These are all the theories that are going on out there. Although I would think if one was on his wrist, he would also have some like I know they're both runners and they're fit people, but I would think I can't imagine that whoever was doing the killing was wearing the watch at the time of the killing, or I feel like their heart rate would be. I was like, Yeah, I was gonna say if you're mid-kill, I would assume.
SPEAKER_01So I think if you're like in psychosis, your heart rate's high, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You'd be like Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Racing. Rage. Which it was high most of the day. Right. But I will tell you about the weird data. Okay. Okay. So did she have her watch on when she no, her writ her watch at some point was taken off and placed in the nightstand with the six empty, five empty pill bottles. Yeah. Um weird. The same people, the same guy who testified in Karen Reed's trial about the the all the data, testified in this one. I've also heard this theory, and I feel like someone has, again, I have to hope that investigators looked at this, and somewhere this data exists and it provides clarity, and we just aren't getting the whole picture, and that's why we're confused. Right. But uh another theory is that Patrick took Lindsay's phone with him because one of the theories is that when the watch came off, it stopped tracking, but you still get data, like your um fitness data, right, which is a combination of your Apple Watch and your phone. Yeah. So, like if the Apple Watch is off, but the phone goes up and down stairs, it'll record stairs, even though the Apple Watch was not on to record that data. Right. So there was uh two flights of stairs documented. And they said the first flight of stairs matched perfectly with when Patrick entered the CVS. So the exact moment he is entering the CVS, it's recording she's gone up a flight of stairs. He's gone up a flight of stairs. And so there are some theories that, like, maybe approaching from the car and entering the CVS might have tracked as a stair. And then there was another one when he left that was the second flight, and it timed perfectly with him leaving. So those theories is that Lindsay's watch stopped recording while Patrick was away, and the phone that's continuing to register for about 15 minutes after all that movement was actually movement from Patrick. And then the weird thing is that the day after, when she is intubated in a coma, there was still health data recorded. So at 7 a.m. it recorded that she had walked 134 meters, and at 8 a.m. it recorded 47 meters plus steps.
SPEAKER_02And he could be holding her phone this whole time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's the whole thought. It's like, was something else going on? Did he have her phone? Did he ever watch what's going on? So that's weird. And again, the Wiffin, the expert, said he couldn't really tell what data came from the Apple Watch, what came from the phone. But there's just like some weird incongruencies with all that data. Um, and then I think the final thing that's interesting is that Patrick made $2.7 million off all the house. Right. Oh, yeah, he's he got $1.7 million from a GoFundMe. He got a million dollars from the house. Like $1.3, right? Something like that. Yeah. He got um, we don't know if he had a life like life insurance policies on these kids. So he may have had, even if it was just like employee sponsored, right? Employer sponsored, he may have gotten money from that. And now he's got a civil lawsuit. So I mean, I know it'd be real sociopathic to be like, you killed your kids, but there is a motive. If he if he was having an affair and he is financially profiting, that's the motive. There's motive, and you're not happy with your wife who is a mental. Yeah, which he said. I didn't, he said, like, I didn't marry I didn't marry a monster. This is like this was a progression. Right. So anyway, that's all I have. That's yeah. So I do feel like I was really binding that Patrick did it. I think with some research, I'm less convinced, but I do think again But do you think? I don't think I think if I was in the jury, I would have to find her not guilty. But yeah, there's not enough to say without a doubt. But I don't know. I think clearly there were system issues that should be addressed, but I think people which again doesn't when I'm like, people need to take some accountability also. And that doesn't really help when innocent children died who should not have died died. So I don't know. I think system issues, I don't think again, I don't think these individual providers, from what I have seen, warranted warrant their careers being ruined in lawsuits. Right. I think system-wise issues, we need more resources. We did you should be able to get help again, though, she was impatient and she discharged herself. Right. So like you should be able to get help if you want help. That's a problem. And I think I want more information. I either want like this, I know people like it's not your business, but I do feel like I I think if they if if there was this whole investigation into Patrick, Patrick Clancy and he was cleared. I'd want to know that we should see the information because then we can say, okay, you know what? They did do an investigation. But I don't think they did. But as from what we've heard, it sounds to us like that didn't happen. He said, she told me she did it, and they said, okay, and that was the end. There was also a thing that, like, he claimed he was doing he's ran down and started doing CPR on the kids, but the EMS said he was sitting on the couch and he wasn't doing CPR. It's just like, why is the story always changing? Right.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree. I think that there's way too much holes. Like, there's not enough inf and like sure, the human memory is not infallible, right? Like we remember things often.
SPEAKER_00I feel like untying nooses around your chest necks and doing CPR are like probably things I'd have pretty vivid memories of.
SPEAKER_01Oh, wouldn't have memories. The most traumatic moment of your life. Untying, oh my gosh, I can't even like it's just sick. So what do you think? I think are you still bad?
SPEAKER_00Patrick does it. You still think it? Okay.
SPEAKER_01I think I but I agree. If I were on the jury and I'm not talking we're not talking about Patrick did it, I don't think you can find her guilty. She is found not not guilty.
SPEAKER_00I just think the prosecution really didn't do a very good job on this case, and they have done nothing to prove right.
SPEAKER_02And that's their entire job is to provide proof, and I don't think they did that in any way. But I we'll see. The court's not, it's not over yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But uh Well, and like and like Kate said too, if we have 12 women on this jury, right, and one of them experienced postpartum depression and can be empathetic, which again, to be clear, this is not po postpartum depression is not a reason for her to be not guilty. We have to believe this was beyond that, right? But like, yes, if if just one of them is like empathetic to her struggles, right, that's it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um among jury people. I'm gonna be interested to see how it goes. I don't think I have any final determinant. I think it you're I think if they did rule Patrick out, we should see that. And the fact that we don't see that, that we haven't seen any proof that he was looked into in any way tells me that they did a shit job. It's a s it's a system, it's a systemic problem with the police in their investigation and a systemic problem with how her health was managed.
SPEAKER_00It's also probably probably makes us even more suspicious that we just live this whole Karen Reed experience. Although I know you said that's the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Well that's what I'm saying. It's two, it is I think it's it's definitely different counties. Um, because Dexworry's nowhere near Stadies, though. It oh, that's a good point. Was it state? Was it federal?
SPEAKER_01Who came in and looked who was the who were the police on state? But you said the state's are bad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's who was the that's who was wrong with Reed. Right. So maybe it is Stadies. It is the Stadies. The Stadies. See?
SPEAKER_01Did I just crack the case?
SPEAKER_00You cracked the case.
SPEAKER_02I just think it's worth investigating into the police department then. Well, and then there's this whole okay, I'm gonna I just think there was if if he was completely innocent, he would be screaming it from the rooftops, and there should be proof for that.
SPEAKER_01There somebody is advising him to lay low. He's like gone off and he's just like hanging out in Manhattan.
SPEAKER_02And also if his father and mother spoke up for Lindsay, that's telling. Yeah, that's telling. So I don't think they're talking to him. Okay.
SPEAKER_01The other thing is if my mom knew that I was having all these issues, why did everyone leave her alone?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why was she ever left alone? And what again, and most importantly, and apparently there is some rumors, like his mom was like, Why did you go? Hey, make sure you don't leave her unsupervised or whatever. And he's like, it was just a CVS trip and she was having a great day. But then you go back to like you were going on trips, right?
SPEAKER_02So it's either he was living his life, either he he it just it's either he killed them all and or tried to kill her, or he just is genuinely that fucking stupid and has no understanding of mental health, had no understanding of his wife's struggles, and really genuinely thought he could have left her alone. You know what I mean? Like yeah, he didn't see anything.
SPEAKER_00Which I think there are rumors, which maybe is why we haven't seen all this evidence. There are rumors that there might be like a manslaughter, like even if she's found guilty, could he face manslaughter charges by leaving her alone? By by like, yeah, which maybe that is why he is allegedly keeping quiet a criminal attorney. But again, I that was breaking news before I we recorded and I did not verify that fact. It's just, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't have any finale, like final thoughts.
SPEAKER_00But if we're on the jury, how are we all voting? Not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. Yeah. Guys, just a reminder, don't forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at Three Scheme Queens. That's the number three scheme queens, all one word. We're also on Reddit, same username. If you want to check out our website, go to three schemequeens.com and you can find links to our social media accounts, our BuzzSpour page, all of our episodes, additional content, and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed. Let us know how we're doing and what you want to hear next. There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store. As always, if you choose not to financially support us, we appreciate the follows, the downloads, the listens, the likes.
SPEAKER_01Kate, what should the people do? Yeah, um, I think this is a pretty hot topic. So I know that you know three people that are interested in this. So I ask you to take out your phone right now, take out your messages app, send this podcast to three people that you know would like to talk about this um and to hear about it and kind of, you know, look at all the sides here. And then I'd like you to scroll on down, leave us a five-star review, leave us a comment, share us with your friends and family, share us on your Instagram feed and your other social media feeds. And yeah, Maggie.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And I think we're gonna have to be we're gonna do something a little more lighthearted next week. Maybe, maybe a return to uh Rapid Fire. Oh, we love Rapid Fire. I mean, uh, this was a real real dark to be researched because it was a heavy research, it was dark, so we're gonna have a little more fun next week. Um, do you think something?
SPEAKER_02Well, I was just gonna say, I think if there's anything, any source of good that can come out of this entire case and just public-wide discussion of it is that people are more aware of postpartum depression. Yeah, mental health reform.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, is this gonna be like the Supreme Court case that we like reference like years to come? For years to come, yes. You know, federal versus Clancy or whatever.
SPEAKER_00So Data Massachusetts. Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Sounds good. We will see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.