The Pollock Twins: Back from the Dead

**Discussion begins at 4:30**

In the late 1950s, a quiet family in the English town of Hexham experienced a tragedy that would forever change their lives, and eventually become one of the most famous alleged cases of reincarnation in modern history.  In 1957, two young sisters, Joanna and Jacqueline Pollock, were killed in a car accident while walking to church with a friend.  Their parents, devastated by the loss, tried to rebuild their lives while carrying unimaginable grief.  But about a year later, something extraordinary happened.  Their mother gave birth to twin girls: Jennifer and Gillian. Almost immediately, their father became convinced that the twins were somehow the rebirth of the daughters he had lost.  As the girls grew older, they began displaying strange similarities to their deceased sisters, including shared personality traits, specific fears, and even what appeared to be memories of places and events they had never experienced.  One twin was even born with birthmarks that closely resembled scars that Jacqueline had before her death.  The story would go on to attract the attention of researchers studying reincarnation, including psychiatrist Ian Stevenson, who documented cases of children claiming memories of past lives around the world.  But the Pollock Sisters case raises a difficult question: were these eerie similarities evidence of something beyond our understanding… or could they be explained by grief, suggestion, and coincidence? 

Transcript

Welcome. You just get 2SchemeQueens today.
2SchemeQueens and a guest.
Well, where's Kait?
Kait is in a genetics lab.
Oh, what's she looking into?
Twins.
Do you want to introduce our guest, Colleen?
Can I get a drum roll, please, Megan? Introducing to the podcast.
Erin, welcome.
Hey, Ron. You, Ron, in the house.
Our number one fan.
Really? Yeah, actually. Really?
No, really. On Spotify? On the planos, listen to you guys.
Yeah. On Spotify. Yes.
Am I really?
You're definitely-
I make the list.
You were one of the most present in the comment section. Yeah.
I didn't even know you could comment. I kept out for a while. I know.
I'm so glad that we have you guys both here because we're talking about sisters today.
Sisters.
And we're talking about twins.
Twins.
I mean, you guys are practically twins.
Irish twins.
Yeah, we're Irish twins if you add three years to it. Four years, one day. I always like to say my sister is four years, one day younger than me.
She ruined my fourth birthday. She laughs about it.
But don't they also say that- What is the family saying?
Before Erin, it was don't say no to Colleen. That's so funny. After Erin, you got maybe better.
I didn't hear that. Well, yeah. You had something to take your rage out on.
That's why Colleen's always trying to tell Kait to have another child because she's like, that would-
Joey needs it.
You have twins in your family.
Our mother is twins, which is an identical twin, which means we have a free mom, our aunts-
Four half-siblings. And four half-siblings. 50 percent.
Which they find, our parents find it uncomfortable when we call our cousins our half-siblings. But genetically, they are. They are.
And I feel it too. I can feel when we're together. I'm like, this is-
This is my blood. I'm like, this is nice. I know what twinception is, where twins do weird things.
Teller. So my mom's name is Christine, and my aunt's name is Michelle. My father's name is Michael, and Michelle's husband is Christopher.
So Chris and Michelle and like- They've married and male version. Chris and Michael, like they both married the same-
A coordinating name.
That's creepy.
And then they both had four children, two girls, two boys. But my aunt had two older girls, two younger boys. And my mom had two older boys, two younger girls.
Within very similar age frame. Right, yeah, we're all almost the same.
Well, then I can't wait to hear what you guys think about our twin mystery today.
I'm excited.
But before we get into it, is it time for our?
Drink check. Yeah, drink check.
So today we're having a twin kick.
Ooh.
Which is, I mean, I just picked it because of the name.
It's really good.
Twins, but yeah.
The ginger beer.
Yeah, Colleen doesn't usually love one.
It's got a kick to it.
Well, yes. So it's bourbon, lemon juice, simple syrup. Bitters is what's giving you the kick, I think.
And then the ginger beer.
Oh, I like it. Erin's drinking it. I know.
I've also needed to drink. Yeah, it's one of those days.
Erin got off the airplane and here she is. There's been no downtime.
I was ready.
4:11
Sistersʼ Fatal Accident
Okay, so here's our background.
Okay, I'm ready.
In the late 1950s, a quiet family in the English town of Hexham experienced a tragedy that would forever change their lives and eventually become one of the most famous alleged cases of reincarnation in modern history.
In 1957, two young sisters, Joanna Pollock and Jacqueline Pollock, were killed in a car accident while walking to church with a friend. Their parents, devastated by the loss, tried to rebuild their lives while carrying unimaginable grief.
But about a year later, something extraordinary happened. Their mother gave birth to twin girls, Jennifer and Gillian Pollock.
Oh my God.
Almost immediately, their father became convinced that the twins were somehow the rebirth of the daughters he had lost.
As the girls grew older, they began displaying strange similarities to their deceased sisters, including shared personality traits, specific fears, and even what appeared to be memories of places and events they had never experienced.
One twin was even born with birthmarks that closely resembled scars that Jacqueline had had before her death.
The story would go on to attract the attention of researchers studying reincarnation, including psychiatrist Ian Stevenson, who documented cases of children claiming memories of past lives around the world.
But the Pollock Sisters case raises a difficult question. Were these eerie similarities evidence of something beyond our understanding, or could they be explained by grief, suggestion, and coincidence?
This week, we're diving into the tragic origins of the Pollock Sisters story, the strange details that made it famous, and the skeptical explanations that challenge the idea that these twins were actually living a second life.
Okay, right out of the bat, you know what I'm going to say?
What are you going to say?
The father had mental illness. Whoa. Oh my God.
I'm going to say, all the time I researched this, all I could think is Colleen's going to be like, I think he's having a menti beat.
It's getting into nurture versus nature.
I think he's manifesting these traits and looking for these signs because he was grieving.
I just want to know, do either of you guys have thoughts on reincarnation?
I'm hopeful for it. I believe in it. If you're a lucky soul, I feel like you can redo it.
But dear God, don't bring me back as a human.
That's the only way. I think only.
No. To be like a dog. Well, isn't the punishment?
I don't know this, but isn't that the deal with some of these Asian Buddhism?
How good you are in this life determines.
We're next.
Yes. If you're a crappy person, you could just come back as an aunt and get stomped on.
Dogs live a great life. You want to be a dog. Like they get fed, they have a pet.
Do you want to be a dog or a cat?
That's a good question.
Because cats don't have, they don't give a thot. Yeah.
But then you're going to yearn for the birds.
Do you yearn for the birds? What about the moose, like, or an otter?
Oh, you want to be...
Who floats around in there. An otter. That's kind of, like, I feel like you're pretty, like what...
Otters, um... Well, you know, they're native to the area. What hunts an otter?
Um, bear, maybe? I don't know. I say they're native to the area because we know what guy.
Anyways, um, I believe in reincarnation, I feel. Well, I don't know what I believe in. I just believe in there's something else.
Yeah, this can't be...
Whether that's reincarnation or an afterlife.
So...
Um, I was interested, uh, for, for Kait's perspective on this because these people, these subjects are actually Catholics. And King grew up Catholic. They don't believe in...
And necrologism really doesn't... Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
They're like... They believe in sainthoods, maybe, but that's not this vibe, right? No, no.
So let me tell you about, about this case here.
Uh, again, our story starts on May 5th, 1957, in the small town of Hexham in England. Sisters Joanna and Jacqueline Pollock were aged 11 and 6 respectively, and they were walking to church with their friend Anthony.
Marjorie Wynn was in distress after having her own children taken away. Perhaps I heard that maybe they went to boarding school or maybe they were taken away.
I'm anti-boarding school.
But her husband had just died. She was very distressed. She had overdosed on aspirin and phenobarbital, and in her drugged up state, she saw the young children and intentionally struck them with her car.
Oh, my God.
Okay, well, if anybody deserves to be reincarnated, it's children who were murdered.
Yes.
What the heck?
The girls both died on the scene, and nine-year-old Anthony died in route to the hospital.
Oh, my God.
I do feel like, I don't know about reincarnation, but like you said, if anyone deserves, maybe it's like, you know, what if you, if you're still pure and innocent and you are taken tragically, you get to come back. I don't know.
But that's, that's great. The movie I Origin, they kind of touch on reading I Origin. Oh, you know what?
Like when you die, somebody else is born with your eyes. Oh, have you read?
literal eyes.
Oh my God. Have you read The Host?
That sounds so good. Stephanie Meyer?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Where'd they plan?
They have these stories about people who get like a heart transplant or something. Then they have like weird memories.
I believe. Like people who take, who have transplants and then like, yeah, I believe that. Good memories.
Yeah.
The death of the girls devastated their parents, John and Florence. The family was Catholic, as I mentioned. But despite that, John was a believer in reincarnation.
In fact, before his daughters died, he had prayed for proof of reincarnation.
So he's manifested.
He's like, was this my punishment?
Gosh.
On the evening of the sisters' deaths, John began telling people that the girls would be reincarnated into their family in the form of twins. He wasn't the only Pollock who had creepy visions.
Do we have proof of him believing that? Like saying that before the twins were born?
Yes, because he was super vocal, and he was sort of known as the crazy guy in this.
Oh, so feeding into my...
Because, well, they all thought he was crazy because of these rants and he's like, it's fine, my kids will come back.
And then twins were born.
Yes. But if we rewind, there were also, in addition to these two girls who died, there were four brothers. So we have four Pollock brothers, Ian, who is one of these brothers, I mean, they're Catholic, you know.
Had a dream the week of the accident and woke up drenched in sweat, saying he's dreamt of a serious accident involving someone in the family. His screams allegedly woke up his parents.
The other thing that's creepy is that the older sister who died, Joanna, used to say, I will never be a lady. What? And she wasn't wrong.
So this family feels oddly haunted and powerful.
So John announced that the sisters would be reincarnated and he refused to go to their funeral or graves because they weren't actually dead in his mind.
Right?
Okay.
Florence, his wife, was more skeptical and like a good Catholic, remained a disbeliever in reincarnation. So eight months after these two girls die, Florence became pregnant.
Only one heartbeat was detected throughout the pregnancy and there was no history of twins in the family, but John remained adamant that twins were coming.
I'm wondering, are these going to be identical twins or fraternal?
Okay, well, let's find out. Around the same time, I just want to give you a little closure on what happened to Marjorie, okay? Marjorie, when?
Yeah, that's all I could think to. Taylor Swift. So Marjorie was the driver of the car that struck the children.
She was tried in court. She had reportedly been depressed since the death of her husband five years prior.
And as I mentioned, either her two teenage daughters had either been, according to the source, removed from her custody or sent to boarding school. After being evaluated at a hospital, Marjorie was admitted to a psychiatric hospital for depression.
Oh, God.
When she finally went to court, she was sentenced to, what do you think she was sentenced to?
This is in England? Yeah. Drunk driving?
Well, I guess she was on Phenobarb, but in the 50s.
In the 50s?
Well, I'm surprised a woman could drive. A year?
Less than that. For murdering three children.
Yep. If it was Germany, she'd have her license removed permanently.
She was sentenced to three years probation and a seven-year driving ban. No jail time.
In all honesty, if I was her, knowing her mental state after killing three children, I'd probably kill myself. You're not the worst.
Who wants to live with that?
Every kid loves their love. I think I would have. I would.
Did she? Or somebody else would kill you in jail. Yeah, or you're going to get taken out.
You'd get beat up.
Maybe I should just stay in this like hospital and paint all day. Somebody make sure that I can get medicated when I'm-
When I need it.
Yeah.
Do their rounds.
Again, most people are really angry about this. This lady killed three kids, got no jail time. You know who wasn't angry?
The dad.
John.
They were coming back.
That's right.
I'm with him. Hold on. He said three years probation, seven year driving ban.
That's a little harsh because my kids aren't actually dead.
Bro, he sounds so mentally ill.
They were coming back.
So mentally ill.
13:17
Twinsʼ Birthmarks Memories
Back to our characters though, despite all evidence supporting that Florence was pregnant with a single fetus, on October 4th, 1958, Florence gave birth to twin girls, Gillian and Jennifer.
Was one of them freakishly smaller than the other?
No.
But you're on the right track.
I'm thinking of reasons why they couldn't see the-
Oh, it was probably just in 1950s.
Yeah. Wait, that's like our Grammy when she was pregnant with our parents, our moms.
The twins?
Yeah. It was all by like archaic ultrasounds. They were mono-mono, which is super, super rare, I guess.
The same, the same stat. Same umbilical cord.
And it's like them suck all the nutrients from the other?
Yeah, our mom was a small one. Oh. She doesn't make it obvious.
I would always be like, I was the skinny one. Girl.
That's so 80s. That's so 80s mom. That is so 80s mom.
Sorry to distract.
So Gillian and Jennifer were born, they were identical.
Whoa.
With the exception of birthmarks.
There's a, okay, here's, this is very confusing because like, yeah, we have Jennifer, Jacqueline, Gillian and Joanna.
I really hate when people do that.
So Gillian and Jennifer are the twins. Joanna was the 11 year old who died and Gillian was the older twin and Joanna always really babied her younger sister and Gillian really acted like the older sister.
So they're like, yeah, Joanna is, I don't know if I said that already, but Joanna is Gillian and Jacqueline is Jennifer. Jacqueline was the younger kid and Jennifer is the younger twin.
Jennifer was born with a birthmark on her hip and a white mark on her forehead. Jacqueline, who was the deceased six-year-old, she had the same birthmark, the size and shape of a thumbprint on her hip.
Then when she was three, she fell and cut her forehead, leaving a scar. So Jennifer is born with the same birthmark and an odd birthmark in the same spot where the scar was on her deceased sister.
There are birthmarks that pop up on foreheads. What are they called? What's in your forehead?
What were you born with? It's like a stork or something.
Well, I was thinking more about how, I pulled you guys, I think, because all the articles are like, it's so rare to have a birthmark.
I have one.
I thought almost everyone.
Me too.
I asked why.
Well, I'm freckled.
You have a big birthmark.
I've got a giant one on my thigh and then a little one on my hand.
I have one on my thigh.
Yeah. Mine's like, not this time.
Well, they also claim, though, sometimes that your birthmark is like how you died in your past life. What?
I get stabbed?
So I'm like, someone must have cut my femoral artery.
Yeah. Mine's on the lateral side of my thigh. So I can't imagine.
Maybe I got infected. Uh-oh. Just where am I?
But you also had nothing on your forehead. Maybe you had Colleen cancer.
Maybe she got, Colleen cancer probably wasn't that big in the past life. You probably got stabbed or something.
Yeah. Fear or something got jabbed into me.
Yeah. So John believed that these birthmarks were proof that they were reincarnations of his deceased daughters. Over the years, John reported a number of odd stories that he felt were proof-proof of the reincarnation.
He claims that he never told the twins about their deceased sisters.
I don't believe that. I believe he was feeding into them the entire time.
Okay. The family ended up moving to Whitley Bay about 30 miles away shortly after their birth. The point is, they didn't really grow up in Hexham, okay?
30 miles though.
Yeah.
But when they were four, the twins returned to Hexham for a visit, and they were reportedly able to identify locations they had never seen.
For example, one of the girls pointed to a wall and noted that on the other side of it was a school they used to attend with a playground in the back that they used to play on.
They also allegedly preferred the toys that had previously belonged to their alter egos. They would say creepy things like, the blood's coming out of your eyes, that's where the car hits you. No way.
I don't believe this.
The parents claimed they would sometimes observe the twins reenacting the accident in present time.
These parents are feeding into this.
The parents have been so distraught, they couldn't part with their dead daughters' clothing and toys, so eventually Florence brought these out for the twins.
Obvious.
And found that they preferred the clothing and toys that their predecessors preferred.
Jennifer said, that's Mary. And it was Joanna's doll named Mary.
No, the parents definitely taught them that.
And Gillian said, that's my Susan. And Jacqueline's doll was named Susan.
Such weird names.
They were also able to identify what had been gifts from Santa. They also seemed to enjoy the same food as their counterparts.
No.
The twins were able to identify people they had never met, but whom Joanna and Jacqueline would have known. The twins had a phobia of cars and suffered nightmares about being hit by cars.
Sometimes when they saw cars in the street, they would yell, the car, it's coming for us.
Okay, my opinion on that is that their parents were so afraid of their kids. This is their being nurtured to feel this way. Because their parents were so afraid of them getting hit by a car.
So they're feeding into that fear.
I mean, that's my-
I'm putting my foot down.
That's my takeaway too. They're so adamant that these girls didn't know about anything.
This is a nurturer.
But I'm like, there's no way. They grew up in this family and had heard nothing about their siblings.
Also, you definitely talked about your sibling.
Joanna and Gillian were both great writers while Jacqueline and Jennifer both struggled to hold a pencil with Jennifer grasping it in her fist even in adulthood.
Petmanship can be genetically bad. Wow. I didn't know that.
In fact, well, yeah, it makes sense. My coworker, her handwriting and her kids had to go into speech therapy, but for petmanship.
Well, that might be an issue now these days.
Yeah. Kids on their iPads.
Before the sisters' death, their parents owned and operated a milk and grocery delivery business. Florence Pollock wore a specific smock to help her husband with the milk delivery while the older sisters were still alive.
After the birth of the twins, Florence no longer worked, so she stayed home with them.
Younger sister Jacqueline of the previous generation who passed, she would have gone with her mother on these deliveries while her older sister Joanna was at school.
So one day, John, their dad, put on the smock that used to be his wife's as a joke and was wearing it around. And Jennifer, the younger twin, oh, Jennifer identified it as a smock her mom used to wear when delivering milk.
Gillian did not recognize it and John, the dad, was like, see, this is more evidence because the younger daughter did delivery. She was in the smock. The older daughter was in school all day.
And so the fact that only this one daughter recognized it is all just proof proof.
Kids are so observant though. Like they have a sixth sense. Yeah.
Kids listen way more than people think they do. So open. And some kids are real elephants, like they're memories.
So like I can see them being like in passing, asking their mom about the smock, remembering that. And then just bringing it up. Yeah.
And I am surprised.
I am with you, Colleen.
19:59
Psychiatrist Investigates
Meanwhile, at the same time over North America, Dr. Ian Stevenson was research and reincarnation.
This was a Canadian born psychiatrist who was a professor at the University of Virginia School of Medicine and founder of the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia.
In the early 1950s, he dropped some acid under the observation of a supervising physician.
How many of our conspiracies had to do with acid?
So many. So many. So he had a three-day trip.
This is like under physician supervision. When he comes out of the trip, he had an epiphany that the mind and physical body are two separate entities.
He got really into reincarnation research and investigated 3,000 cases of children with memories of past lives including 42 pairs of twins over the next 40 years.
Okay, there's something creepy about a man coming off a three-day acid trip and wanting to study children.
People were really intrigued by him, like the greater world was into these stories, but the science community was skeptical and he never really got the respect he wanted. So he was always hoping for respect.
Well, we have Christians religious, right? So it's like religion and science, that was a fight. But if we trust you, you're doing acid.
But it got him a lot of money, because he was kind of a big deal in the world outside of the scientific community.
A lot of rich people gave him a lot of money to like continue his adventure. He did a lot of traveling and research here.
Weird.
He said that he just needed one convincing case in order for like the scientific community to take him seriously. Most of the cases he researched were in Asia, where a lot of people believe in reincarnation. I think it's a kind of a Buddhist thought.
But he considered the Pollock case-
These are Hindi. Might be Hindi.
I think they probably all do. I know Buddhism does.
It's like you spend your life to reach, I don't know, like the afterlife is the whole point. The ultimate peak.
But the point is regardless that the Pollock family, being like in Europe, he thought made them kind of more compelling.
Over the next few decades, he traveled to England multiple times to interview the Pollock family and document the twins' behaviors and statements. Even with funding and public interest, Stevenson struggled to gain scientific legitimacy.
He continued to follow the twins' cases and publish a detailed case report in the second volume of Reincarnation and Biology, a contribution to the etiology of birthmarks and birth defects.
He never gained the respect he sought in the medical community, but he always felt the Pollock's case was one of the strongest cases of reincarnation. And it is from his publications that we have most of that alleged evidence I gave you.
And he brought a lot more attention to the Pollock family. So I told you John Pollock was sort of known to be like the crazy dude in the town. So he's like in the tabloids in Stephanie's, very famous.
John Pollock, this like again, this is, so it sounds like at this point you are with me. Are we thinking this guy could be crazy?
I think, no, 100%.
Yeah. But yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.
The plot thickens because John Pollock then claimed as he's becoming more and more famous that he too had been reincarnated.
He claimed that under hypnosis, he recalled a past life in Bristol, England in 1815, when he was Namiah Bradford, a widowed surgeon obsessed with a servant who died, and he claimed he murdered the servant and he buried him.
What? Did he go dig up the bones and prove it?
Well, author Ian Wilson investigated the story, and he found while there was the story of this Bradford, the story lacked a lot of historical accuracy.
There was the murder of a servant, but it was by a different surgeon, not Bradford, and Bradford wasn't a widower, so his facts were not all quite right. So after the twins turned five, the memories of their past lives seemed to fade.
They went on to live normal lives. But again, Stevenson continued to meet them and interview them. He said when he met them in their twenties, they said they remembered nothing about their past lives.
They accepted their parents' belief that they were their elder sisters reincarnated while showing mild skepticism about reincarnation generally.
Gillian did report visions of herself playing in a sandpit at a home in Wickham, which she was able to describe the garden in the home, which matched the one Joanna lived in with her family when she was four.
So she's describing this memory that would have been Joanna's, but not hers. And that happened in her adulthood. She's like, I had this vision.
But other than that, after they were five, they never again had any sort of memories or, you know.
Can I just say that sometimes I'll read something or watch something. I know.
And you don't know if it happened to you or not.
And then like two years later, I'll be like, is that a memory? Yeah. Was that something that happened to me?
I would dream. And I'm like, was that a, yeah? Yeah.
So they could have, I don't know. They could have read something about a sandbox in Wickham. Fine line.
I do.
I mean, I think there's definitely, probably some, maybe even unintentional. But yeah, that there's, again, no one in this family is talking about the sisters. I don't believe that.
Here's where I'm at now, though, after listening further, is that like, it's harmless to think that they are their sisters reincarnation, right?
Is it, though?
If it's helping him to cope. I'm thinking it may be harmless to him, but I'm thinking about these girls.
Can you imagine what if your mom just kept, your dad just kept being like, you're not even Colleen, you are your dead sister, and I love you, and like, just putting that on you? I feel like, to psychosis.
So in 1978, the Pollock Twins appeared in a TV interview with Michael Chaplin, and both appear uncomfortable looking to their parents for reassurance. The following year, Florence died of a heart attack at age 57.
Oh my God.
And within a year, John had remarried. Some argue that he just wasn't devastated because he believed she would come back.
It wasn't that he would just like moved on from his wife, it was that he was like, it's fine, she's not really dead, she's gonna come back.
She'll come back as a child.
You never have to be sad that anyone died if you're just like, Oh God, he's so mentally. See them again. But him moving on so quickly, Florence's mother lived with them.
And so when he moved on, he sold the house, kicked his mother-in-law out, so now she's homeless. So his kids, his four sons all kind of, Oh, I forgot there's brothers. Abandoned him.
Yes, there was a big division in the family. The family kind of broke up at that point. And then in 1985, John Pollock died of a heart attack at age 64.
Wow.
That is bad cardiac health in that family.
So I have some additional information to give you here, but it sounds like you guys have already, we're all sort of on the same page already, without-
I'm like, no, he was ill. Got too many patterns.
Yeah. I just can't believe that they're at him, and they're like, yes, we never spoke of the children. We put away every picture.
We never gave any hints, but I think there had to be hints.
No way. Yeah.
And probably every time they're telling a story, John's unconsciously rewarding them, right?
Yes. That's exactly it. You're putting it in words.
He's probably like, good job. Or picture, the dead sister really was good at playing the trumpet, and now the new young, newly born child, they'll be like, you like the trumpet. You like the trumpet.
Exactly. I like that.
But you love purple.
Yeah.
God.
Purple. Yeah. The gaslight girl boss.
That's what the dad was doing. Gaslight dad boss.
26:58
Conflicting Family Accounts
So again, most of the story that I've told you to this point is all circulated from Ian, the doctor who was investigating.
But there was a recent podcast series on this case. Yeah. So I'm not sure.
Is it a series? It's like eight episodes about this. Anyway.
So this podcast is trying to reach out to the girls. But the first thing they find are the grandchildren of Florence.
So these daughters are the daughters of Ian, who's one of the brothers who allegedly had the dream, the vision that someone was going to die. He did not speak to his dad after his mother's death.
He's much older.
So I guess these granddaughters are about the same age as the sisters, the twins. So they have some like memories when they were very young, but then they didn't ever really see him again.
But they start by interviewing these grandchildren of Florence. So Lauren said that she learned about her aunt's death and the alleged reincarnation in school. Like she never heard about it from her family.
They were in school and they were watching a video on reincarnation. She recognized a photo as one that she had seen on her mantle at home.
Oh my God, that's awful.
Some of these grandchildren claim that John was violent and controlling, and that their grandmother had told them the reincarnation story was a lie.
They said their grandmother had told them that John was a truthfully narcissistic gaslighting little man, and a pathological narcissistic liar who abused her.
Can you imagine your grandma saying that about somebody? Actually, I probably could. I remember my grandma being like, what a fucking loser.
She sure was a cigarette even though I never saw her smile.
Did her grandma smoke?
She did.
Didn't they all?
Yeah.
Their granddaughters challenged the long-held narrative asserting that John fabricated the reincarnation story, coaching the twins and manipulating media accounts to enhance his reputation.
They recalled John's abusive behavior toward his wife Florence and the toxic atmosphere he maintained, and alleged that John orchestrated the reincarnation claims for personal fame, possibly inspired by coincidences such as the twins' reactions to
old toys. They claim that the story that Ian had a premonition was fabricated by John, and that there's no proof that Jacqueline actually had the same birthmark on her hip. So Jacqueline is the deceased sister.
So we don't know if she...
We know that... So we know that like the twin had the birthmark, and the parents were like, oh, that matches, but we don't know that the deceased daughter actually had the birthmark. We have to just take his word for it.
They claim that many of the stories of them recognizing people or places were exaggerated or fabricated. This is Joanna, a granddaughter, who was named for her aunt. So again, who could be any more confusing?
So Joanna, one of Florence's granddaughters, claimed that she had not seen John since she was four because her father and him did not get along, but she makes allegations of him showing her inappropriate crimes and autopsy photos at a young age and
Oh my God.
So from the grandkids, John's not a good guy, right?
Yeah. So then this podcast attempted to track down the twins, and it was discovered that...
The one that died.
Well, yeah, maybe now I'll reveal that to you and I'll just cut out words. Wait, so then they say, let's track down the twins, and they find out that Gillian, the elder twin, had passed away in 2002 at the age of 44.
Jennifer, on the other hand, the surviving twin, did do her first interview in decades.
Okay.
She said, John was a loving, doting father. She denied him ever being violent, but did report that he had numerous affairs. He even took Jennifer to the home of one of the women as a cover.
So like when the husband came home, he was like, oh no, my daughter is just here.
Oh my God.
Selling Girl Scout cookies. I mean, that's not what it was, but it was like some kind of cover. She said he would never make lies up.
I think what he said was the truth as he believed it. She denies her parents ever manipulated or encouraged the girls to say or do anything, claiming, quote, we didn't know anything about the girls until we were well into our teenage years.
She claimed they didn't even hear about the girls until they were 18, and it wasn't until they were 21, and that interview happened, that they really heard all the facts about like, we believe you are your dead sisters.
But again, I'm like, there's no way that everyone's like, this guy was talking to anyone who would listen about reincarnation and his daughters being the reincarnation of his daughters. So there's no way they didn't hear anything.
Yeah, that's crazy.
So to conclude this, Jennifer said, I 80% think it's reincarnation, there's gotta be something there.
So pretty much, it sounds like the sons don't speak to him, the sons didn't really believe it if we believe with their, so if the daughter nieces were saying, but the one surviving daughter is like, my dad believed it, I don't know if it's real, but
So here's my thing, the twins, the alive ones, were infants raised in grief.
The boys were alive before and continued to live through the grief, I trust the boys' perspectives. Oh, that's my thought process. Spot on.
It's weird that he was so into reincarnation before they died, that's bizarre.
The story would have made more sense to me if he was just like so devastated that he's like, it's okay, I'm going to choose to believe they're going to be reincarnated, but yes, I think he definitely, there's no way they really had no clue that they
There's enough oddness about it to clearly make it a mystery, but I do think the ending theme is that he was mentally like gaslit as children.
It sounds like again, not a good guy in general.
They allegedly physically abusive to his wife, allegedly a cheater, allegedly, they talked about like when his wife went into labor with the twins, it was a different time then, but he was like, oh, she's in labor.
Okay, well, I'm going to go deliver the milk. And he was like out delivering his milk while she's in the house birthing these children. And then someone ran up to him and was like, John, did you hear?
And he goes, let me guess, twins.
Oh my god.
But the point is that I'm like, and again, I know, different time, 1950s, but I'm like, get in there with your wife who's delivering your children, you know? Okay, well, that's all I have.
That was a good one because it made me think a little bit.
Yeah.
But I think I'm right.
Yeah, I mean, I think we're all right. I still believe in it, but I don't know about this.
I don't believe them, but I believe in it, capital I.
Yeah, I don't know. Yes, I'm not saying reincarnation. I mean, I really don't know.
I'm not saying it's not possible. I don't think.
There's so many different perspectives of the circle of life. I think it's just a version. Yeah.
But is this proof proof?
I don't think so.
No.
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If you want to check out our website, go to 3schemequeens.com, and you can find links to our social media accounts our Buzzsprout page, all of our episodes, additional content, and our contact page, where you can engage with us and share any updates
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As always, if you choose not to financially support us, we appreciate the follows, the downloads, the listens, the likes. Well, do you want to take over?
Let me do my key impersonation. Okay, so scroll on down, give us a review, interact, follow us on Instagram, leave a comment. If you believe in the twins, go to our most recent post and leave a twin emoji.
Otherwise, take out your phone and text two people because we're doing twins. Text two people that are twins. Text the twins.
Everybody has a set of twins in their life. Erin and I have a lot.
Text the twins, text the daughters of twins. Text the friends of twins.
And just hit them up with this episode, see what they think. Do they feel they're reincarnated? Would you want a twin?
I think I would want a twin, but you know what I don't want? To be twin-less when your twin dies.
Can you imagine if you have a twin and your twin is like uber successful and you're just like mediocre?
I would hate that.
That would suck.
I want to be equal. Yeah. That would not happen.
I don't like that.
I feel like it would be like.
We'd get the same haircut.
Yeah. You'd be like, man, she's getting an athletic scholarship and I.
I feel like you see they have fraternal twins. I feel like identical twins are a little codependent. No offense to my mother and my aunt, but they need each other.
Whereas fraternal twins can branch off, but identical twins, there's something genetically odd about them. I'm like aches when Michelle is on vacation. Yeah.
It's weird. Well, when my mom lived in California and my aunt was in New England, they went to a wedding in Pennsylvania wearing the same outfit without communicating to each other.
That's creepy.
Like, they do that at almost every family event. Every Christmas. They go clothing shopping and only one of them tries it on.
Yes.
Well, that's nice, actually. Yeah, that's the bonus.
That's the sale vibe. And Michelle will come over like, what do we pick?
I actually like that. If I could get someone who would try on my clothes for me, I would love that.
And I actually would love to have twins. I think I'm genetically disposed to have twins.
Well, it's gets a generation, right?
We're not identical twins. They're just a mutation. I like to remind my mother of that.
But we have both identical and fraternal in our blood. So.
Yeah, get them done, one and done.
They're best friends.
Yeah, friend for life.
They babble, they learn their own language.
I mean, you guys already have a best friend for life.
I know, but you always seem so much older growing up though. Yeah, but now I see you so baby.
Yeah. I hate when you'd say that. But yeah, best friends for life from birth.
Yeah.
All right.
Hashtag twinning.
Well.
Leave a comment.
We, that's it.
You know, we're going to take a little break next week.
We got a small break.
Spring break. We're going to take the week off. But we will see you back here with the 3Scheme Queen in a few Tuesdays.
And see you next two Tuesdays.
And so we will see.
Yeah. So I was like, how are we going to change that?
C-U-N-T-T.
C-U-N-T-T. Tee tee. Bye.