Boston Marathon Bombing and the Waltham Murders

**Discussion begins at 4:28**

The Boston Marathon bombing occurred on April 15, 2013, during the city’s 117th annual marathon. This is a world famous race, attracting participants from across the globe, and thousands of people had gathered near the finish line on Boylston Street near Copley Square.  Suddenly,  two homemade pressure cooker bombs exploded within 4 seconds of each other, just 210 yards apart.  Tragically, three people were killed that day, and more than 260 others were injured.

In this episode, we look into the Boston Marathon bombing and the unsolved Waltham triple homicide.  We will explore who Tamerlan Tsarnaev was and discuss theories about his potential role in the murder, his radicalization and time on the Terrorist Watch List, and whether he may have been an FBI informant.  From anti-Semitic motives to robbery theories, and the shocking connections that link these events to one of the largest acts of terrorism on US soil... we're about to tell you a story that you will shock you.

Transcript

Are we on air?

What are you doing there?

Listening to our podcast?

Colleen's really good at accents.

Let's hear your Boston accent.

What are you doing over there?

No, wait.

I can't get out of it.

You're in like the 1940s.

Annie M.

Hey guys, welcome.

Welcome.

Hello.

All 3SchemeQueens back together.

Oh boy, it's a triple threat.

First time in season three.

Yeah, three for three, baby.

I've got an unrelated recommendation, guys.

I just watched the Princess and the Shaman.

Princess and the Shaman, is it a cartoon movie?

It's on Netflix.

It's about this Norwegian princess who falls in love with a gay American shaman.

So anyway, the only reason I mentioned it is he's quite a conspiracy theorist.

I actually went down the Google rabbit hole on him after the documentary, and I don't really feel that the documentary gets into enough his crazy conspiracy theorists, but he does claim to be part reptilian.

Does the shaman know she's in love with him?

Yeah, they're like married.

Oh, but he's gay?

Yeah.

Is there money involved?

Well, she was royalty, and they have this whole business venture, and that's the whole thing that he's like a con man and...

She's Norwegian.

She's Elsa.

She's Norwegian princess, but she had to give up her crown.

She gave up her crown to marry this shaman.

What's a shaman?

He's like...

He's Glenn Powell and Gwyneth Paltrow's, like, healer, but he's on dialysis, and I heard he has HIV.

So I'm kind of feeling like, why can't you heal yourself?

Yeah, shamans are like soul healers, right?

I remember that episode on Grey's Anatomy.

Yeah.

But anyway, the point was, these people who believe that they are, you know, part reptilian, this guy was a prime example.

You don't believe you're part reptilian.

Maybe.

No.

But you think that, like, the royal family might be.

Yes.

Okay.

How do you just believe you're part reptilian and not actually know if you are?

I mean, maybe they do know.

No, I don't know.

He said, I'm part reptilian, I'm part Andromedan.

I don't know.

He's crazy, honestly, if you go down the...

Anyway.

You know what?

Good recommendation, Megan.

Anyway, recommendation if you're just looking for an hour and a half to kill.

And I felt there were a lot of unanswered questions at the end of it.

So again, that took me down the Google rabbit hole.

And I was like, this man is quite a conspiracy theorist.

All right, let's get into our drink check.

Colleen showed up with our drink check.

Yeah, we've got a Boston-themed drink right now.

One of my preferred, a Sammy Adams Oktoberfest.

Yes, it's my favorite drink.

I think it's delicious.

It makes me feel like fall is here.

Yeah, exactly.

Which it is because it's officially fall.

Sammy Adams, this is a bourbon boy drink.

This is not a me drink.

Sometimes I doubt if I actually like Sammy Adams or if I just like it because it's from Dawson.

Because Hamilton drank it too, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sammy Adams, he could get it.

Have you seen the man on the bottle?

I was like, is he real?

Yeah, he's a founding father.

You didn't know that?

No, I'm not even like you.

I feel like you think I'm pranking you.

No, I know you're not.

That's why I looked over at Megan.

Any founding father can get it.

Let's be real.

I'm into that.

Rebellion?

Young men rebelling?

Woohoo!

I have a question.

Is Samuel Adams the father of John Adams?

I believe...

I don't actually know if they're related.

They must have lived in the same era.

Second cousins.

There we go.

Okay, so this episode was actually a recommendation from Jeff, my brother.

He listens every week and he buys the merch.

He's a Redditor, like his sister.

It's a thing.

You guys both really like to be...

I'm late to the Reddit game, though.

I feel like him and BourbonBoy and Birdman are big Redditors.

That's true, yeah.

I trust Reddit more than I trust a lot of other resources online.

Well, that might be a problem.

Yeah, that might be a very big problem.

Like, for like...

Well, I mean, 90% of that was sarcastic.

But also like for like experience purposes, because I'll be like, oh, is this a good device?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which I think is what Jeff uses Reddit for a lot, he says.

It's like you can go on and get some subject matter experts to weigh in.

Okay, so today we're going to talk about, I don't know if you guys know this, but one of the two Boston Marathon bombers actually allegedly may have been involved in a triple homicide prior to the bombing.

And if it had been properly investigated, perhaps the Boston Marathon bombing never would have happened.

Whoa.

And I will say, I'm going to tell you what I learned.

I'm going to tell you the story.

And I think at the end, you're going to see there is sort of, there are multiple conspiracies involved here.

So, the Boston Marathon bombing occurred on April 15th, 2013, during the city's 117th annual marathon.

This is a world famous race attracting participants from across the globe, and thousands of people had gathered near the finish line on Boylston Street near Copley Square.

Suddenly, two homemade pressure cooker bombs exploded within four seconds of each other, just 210 yards apart.

Tragically, three people were killed that day, and more than 260 others were injured.

In the immediate aftermath, Boston streets became a scene of both devastation and heroism.

First responders, police officers, medical personnel, and ordinary bystanders rushed in to help the wounded despite the danger of further explosions.

Hospitals in the city quickly mobilized, treating hundreds of casualties in a matter of hours.

The attack left the city on edge as investigators worked rapidly to determine who was responsible and whether more attacks might follow.

Within days, the FBI had identified two suspects, brothers Tamerlan and Zhukar Tsarnaev, launching an unprecedented manhunt.

In the following days, the brothers killed MIT policeman Sean Collier and committed a carjacking before engaging in a shootout in Watertown, Massachusetts, during which Tamerlan was killed.

The city of Boston went into lockdown as police searched for Zhukar, who was eventually found hiding in a boat in a suburban backyard four days after the bombing.

Zhukar told investigators that he and his brother were self-radicalized Islamic extremists who were motivated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In fact, they learned to build explosives from an online al-Qaeda magazine.

Zhukar Tsarnaev was convicted on multiple charges, including using a weapon of mass destruction and was sentenced to death in 2015.

But what if I told you that these were not the first violent crimes committed by these brothers?

Is it possible that the bombing could have been prevented?

Well, I mean, I'm going to say yes.

Yeah, I think so, because I don't think that, like, if they were self-radicalized by extremists, you know, extremists don't always, like, do these, like, public, like, terrorist, terroristic attacks.

They also have, like, singular attacks that are, like, meant to cause terror, too, yeah.

Also, I'm like, you're telling me they had no suspicious online activity that could have been researched.

Like, there's full teams to research these.

Yeah, I mean, spoiler alert, where you get to this, they were on the terrorist watchlist.

That's what I'm like, yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

We're gonna get to that.

Were you living in, you weren't in Boston during these.

No, I was.

I was actually in Brewster, Cape Cod, the day of the bombing, but I'll never forget, Timmy, my brother, was supposed to be there, but he left early.

Was he with Erica, or was he with Grammy?

I can't remember.

They left early, but we couldn't get ahold of him, and I'll never forget my mom panicking for like an hour, until Timmy responded.

Yeah.

And then all of Boston went to a lockdown for days.

Shut down.

You couldn't get anywhere near it.

And then it's been permanently changed since then.

You can't go to any events with bags.

I mean, probably now see-through bags, but like the holiday celebrations that followed this event, like 4th of July, but like you couldn't, getting into the city was insane.

I'm like...

Oh no, what year was it?

2013.

I was about to say, I know that I was not in college.

But we're actually not going to talk anymore about that actual bombing.

We're going to rewind to 2011, and that's what our episode is really going to focus on.

Well, this is like the prequel.

Yep.

Let's rewind to two years, to September 11th, 2011, the 10-year anniversary of 9-11.

That is when a triple homicide occurred in Waltham, Massachusetts.

I will say that there's one writer who is friends with one of the victims, and she has a documentary I recommend.

She has a book that I read.

She's the one who's interviewed in most of these articles.

She's on This American Life.

She's a journalist who was friends with one of these victims.

Almost all of my information comes from her for the most part, some various source of hers.

Really, this has not really been talked about or covered in the news outside of this one journalist who's fighting to share the story.

They don't want us to believe they did a shitty job, which I believe that they did.

So the victims of this triple homicide were Brendan Mess, Raphael Teakin and Eric Weissman.

So these were three marijuana dealers.

And again, they were like professional growers, but this was before marijuana was largely legalized and before there were dispensaries everywhere.

So Brendan Mess, he was the resident of this apartment.

He was a 25-year-old martial arts instructor, and there's sort of mixed information on his religious background.

So unclear if he's Jewish or what his religious background is.

But we do know that the other two victims were both Jewish.

So his friends included Eric Weissman, a 31-year-old Jewish bodybuilder, and Rafael Tikin, who went by Rafi.

He was a 37-year-old Jewish personal trainer.

So these are like three physically fit men.

Yeah.

Drug dealers.

Who were drug dealers.

But they were like high marijuana and they were high-end like, I wouldn't say high, but in the documentary, their friend is like, honestly, if these people lived today, they'd probably be running their own dispensary and they'd probably be well-respected and making a ton of money.

They weren't sketchy.

It was marijuana.

They did all their own growing, and there was no mixing of products.

It was pretty clean.

Clean leaves.

Oh, yeah.

You know what I mean?

So the three of them, these three guys had gathered to watch the 8:30 p.m.

Sunday night football game.

And I just assumed they were watching the Pats.

That's what I assumed, except I fact checked this.

And actually, when I went back, it looks like the game would have been the New York Jets beating the Dallas Cowboys 27 to 24.

Oh, hell yeah.

I love it when the Pats lose.

Was it Fantasy League then?

Maybe they were watching for the Fantasy League.

No, they were just football fans.

They were just football fans.

But I assumed they liked J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets.

But I assumed with you that it was the Pats because I was like, we're in a new way.

It's got to be.

Anyway, we kind of know their plan because they actually invited this other buddy to come watch with them.

But he had just gotten off a flight from Indonesia and he said he was jet lagged and he fell asleep and so he never showed up.

Then we know that Eric Wiseman's cell phone was used to call Jerry's Italian Kitchen at 8:54 p.m.

So they were hungry.

And order three entrees.

So there was three people.

Look at that detective work.

Or they were just two really hungry men.

Then the girl, the delivery girl arrived at 9:14 p.m.

I'm like, 20-minute turnaround?

Pretty fast.

Also makes me think about growing up, we always had Domino's on Friday and it was always the 30 minutes or it's free.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Anyway, when the delivery person came at 9.14, nobody answered the door.

She called Wiseman's phone back and she did not get an answer.

So we assume, based on this, that sometime between 8.54 and 9.14 is when this crime occurred.

So somebody, they actually ordered their own meal.

As far as we know.

Well, why would somebody fake?

Because they were.

I think so.

So the following morning, Brendan's new ex-girlfriend, Hibba, got the landlord to let her, we're going to talk about her later, okay?

But she got the landlord to let her into the apartment where she found a devastating scene.

Oh, my God, they were all dead.

Each of the three men was found in a different room.

Oh, God.

Tied up.

Oh, my God.

Their necks were slit from ear to ear.

Holy crap.

So deeply, they were nearly decapitated.

Oh, my God.

They were about $5,000 cash and seven pounds of marijuana sprinkled on top of the bodies.

So people thought it was like a message.

Right, right.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my gosh, if I walked in, you probably smelled it.

Anyway, she fled to the neighbors with bloody feet and asked for a telephone to call 911.

She was barefoot?

And she asked for a cigarette.

They said she was really upset.

And she was like, we need to call 911.

And can I have a cigarette?

Priorities.

The police pretty quickly determined that this was a drug deal.

And it seems there was a pretty minimal investigation.

We know that Eric was in the process of striking a plea deal for previous drug charges.

I tried to go back and find them.

I think there might have been some cocaine.

It might not have just been marijuana.

But the other two had no criminal record.

So they were like, these were not like big, again, these were just like some hippie, these young Jewish hippie marijuana growers.

It wasn't like this big cartel.

But they said, no one really investigated it.

There were no tip lines.

All the neighbors were told this was probably just like a cartel or something.

It's all good.

You're all safe.

Also, how many people get murdered over weed?

Literally, I feel like there's so much more that people get like cocaine, fentanyl, heroin.

If they were growing their own, they're not missing.

Yeah, you're right.

Good point.

The police told the families of the victims that this was all drug-related and at some point, somebody would probably get arrested for something else, and as part of the plea deal, they would admit to the murders, and that's how it was going to be solved.

But nobody feels like all of the families, the friends, everyone now is like there was really no investigation.

That does sound like a lot of assumption.

They saw drugs and just wrote it off.

Yeah, exactly.

Sounds familiar.

Now, interestingly, their friend, the one who I said was invited to watch the game, it was jet lagged, it didn't show up.

He said the next morning, he shows up at Raffi's house, and this is before the time of bodies were all found at Brendan Mesa's house.

He noted that all of his weed and money was gone, and he actually reported to the police, he was like there was a robbery at Raffi's house also last night.

So what are the odds that these three friends are murdered in one house, and at the same time, one of their houses was robbed?

Right.

I'm confused by the numbers.

Who were the three people dead?

Raffi, Brendan, and Eric.

And then who was the friend?

I didn't write his name down.

Oh, okay.

This is the guy that was supposed to join in on the Sunday night football, and he was jet lagged and was like, now I'm tired.

Okay.

Okay.

When you're investigating my friend's murder, you should also probably know that his house looks like it's been robbed.

That sounds like a connection.

That's suspicious.

The police took Raffi's tech, but they didn't fingerprint the house.

They didn't do any other kind of investigation.

And again, I'm just like, what are the chances that there's a robbery and a murder in two separate instances within 24 hours of each other that are not related?

That's crazy.

There was one name that the friends provided to the police, and that was Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

Oh, sounds familiar.

He had lived a few blocks from Brendan, Brendan's apartment, where this all happened.

And Tamerlan had called Brendan his best friend.

The two had even been roommates at some point, though it sounds like they maybe have had a bit of a falling out.

They worked out at the Y Crew Gym together, which we're going to talk a lot about the gym, but nobody ever really looked into him.

And friends are even more convinced of his involvement because they said that, like, this was supposed to be Brendan's biffle, but like he didn't come to the funeral, he didn't come to the memorials, and in fact, he never went back to the gym that he was like a regular at.

Whoa.

And suddenly he fled to Chechnya for a six-month trip.

Wait, you're telling me he ran away to Russia.

This guy fled the scene of the crime for six...

Fled the country for six months.

Right, that's what I mean.

And he came back?

For six months.

Yep.

I wouldn't have come back.

He came back radicalized.

So this murder goes largely uninvestigated.

Two years go by, we have the bombing, and now people are like, you know, investigating this, trying to look into it.

And people begin to link the now deceased suspect, Tamerlan, with the murder of his friend in 2011.

The Tsarnaev family, let's talk about them then.

So they arrived in Cambridge in 2002 on tourist visas and applied for political asylum as Chechens who had been persecuted by Russians.

Do you guys know about Chechnya?

No.

I didn't know either.

I looked it up.

Can I say that?

Can I hear it in a sentence, please?

Well, Chechnya is a republic of Russia.

Chechens are mostly Muslims.

Okay.

They strong clan-based social organization.

In the 90s, early 2000s, there were a series of war between Russia and the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

The first war ended with a Russian defeat and a peace treaty granting Chechnya autonomy.

But then in 1999, Chechen fighters invaded a neighboring Russian province and the second war ended with a Russian victory, restoring control over this breakaway republic.

When was that?

The 90s and 2000s.

So the parents first brought their 7-year-old son, Jhikar, over and then a year later, their 16-year-old son Tamerlan came over.

So Tamerlan was described as being a nerd.

He became buddies with some other Chechen immigrants before he befriended Brendan Mess.

And he had aspirations of going to Harvard and also being an Olympic boxer.

So he competed in the Golden Gloves competition in New England.

And the winner of the Golden Gloves competition gets to go to nationals.

And then that's sort of the path to get to the Olympics.

So he wins the Golden Gloves competition, but he was not permitted to go to nationals because he wasn't a US citizen.

So it seems like this maybe is when his personality shifted because he's like, now he's just getting angry.

Like he has all these big dreams, but he can't accomplish them.

And you know, it's like someone is doing this to him.

So this one gets really angry and he kind of breaks away from Brendan and from his kind of American friends.

And he's hanging out more with Chechens like Ibrahim, who is a man he would bring to the gym.

In the meantime, he meets this woman, Catherine Russell in a club and she gets pregnant, they get married.

And she actually converted to Islam for him.

Tamerlan also had a history of violence against an ex-girlfriend, and there are allegations that he might have been abusive to Catherine, but she never filed any reports.

And then we have this other man that he's hanging out, Ibrahim, who is also a violent man with multiple allegations of assault against him.

So again, two angry, violent men who were feeling wronged by the world, right?

But it was, they weren't, were they the brothers?

Yes, but the younger brother, Ibrahim is a new character I'm about to tell you about.

So I think what we can kind of assume up of this is that, and part of why maybe this is covered up too is because the prosecutors didn't want it to be thought of this way.

But I think the theory is really that Tamerlan was really like the brains behind this whole bombing.

I do kind of remember hearing about this aspect.

Ja'Kar was just like his younger brother who like, he kind of like the the DC sniper, right?

That like the older man was really the, the puppeteer.

The puppeteer and he's got a young impressionable.

Yeah, yeah, he was young.

He was like, the little brother was, wasn't he like in his, He think he was in college, maybe like 19 or something.

Yeah, he was.

So, so that's why I'm not really focusing very much on Ja'Kar.

I'm like really focused on Tamerlan here, but Tamerlan, but again, so Tamerlan is now hanging out with this other guy, Ibrahim.

So, the other thing that's happening in this perfect storm here is that Tamerlan's dad gets hit in the head with a pipe.

He becomes unable to work.

So this family was already kind of struggling, lower class.

Oh my gosh.

And now they're really in financial strength.

Why did he get hit in the head with a pipe?

I'm sure he did something.

No, no, it said he was in front of a Russian club and he got into a fight and got hit in the head with a pipe.

Yeah, I was like, I don't know.

Okay, so the pipe fell on him.

No, it sounds like a fight.

It was an aggressive act.

But I can't really get into details.

You guys always pick out my one little detail to just ask a hundred questions about.

I do not know.

So he was hit with a pipe and he couldn't work again.

And I'm like, context, hold on.

I've never been...

Was it an accident?

Was he also aggressive?

I believe it was a fight.

Yes, but honestly, it sounds like...

Sounds like aggression runs in the family.

We don't hear too much about his dad.

Mostly what we're hearing is the mom is also very extremist.

Oh, gosh.

It's a storm right there.

The parents start sealing things to sell.

They end up getting divorced.

The father leaves the United States.

But meanwhile, Tamerlan is a new father with his wife.

They end up on food stamps.

He drops out of college, and he's struggling, right?

So we know the family was struggling financially, but then suddenly in September of 2011, Tamerlan buys a computer.

He books his trip to Dagestan for six months.

And so the question is like, how did this guy who was just on food stamps and broke suddenly get all this money in September of 2011?

Weird.

So police tracked down this friend, Ibrahim.

Wait, when was the murder?

In September of 2011?

So the police actually tracked down this man, Ibrahim, who's living in Florida with his girlfriend, because they are able to look at telephone records from Tamerlan in 2011.

Right.

And see that they had this communication.

Also, why didn't you do that in 2011?

Why did you have to wait till 2013 for this bombing, to be like, let's look into his phone records?

Anyway, so they look into his phone records, and they see that there was this man, Ibrahim, who was talking to Tamerlan a whole bunch.

They'd been texting in the weeks preceding this triple murder about extreme ideology and violence.

And then after the murders, no more contact between them.

That's weird, right?

That's weird.

Even more bizarrely, all the messages were deleted from Ibrahim's phone, so the police can still see them.

Why were you attempting to delete evidence that you had been messaging this day for weeks?

And then as far as Ibrahim goes, he apparently bought a Mercedes in late 2011.

So these two men just came into all this money.

Where is it coming from?

They go to meet Ibrahim at his home.

Ibrahim is being interrogated by FBI and Massachusetts state troopers at 7:30 p.m.

And he was notified that he was a suspect in this triple homicide from a couple years prior.

He was apparently shown evidence against him.

Three hours into the interview, he began to admit to being involved in the homicide.

So he was writing a confession.

This is Ibrahim.

This is Ibrahim.

He's writing a confession in his apartment.

I'm like, well, that's weird.

Why didn't they take him to a police station?

Right.

Apparently, there was an ADA from Middlesex, sorry, Middlesex, Massachusetts.

Like Middlesex County?

Yes.

Where I'm from.

They had texted this FBI agent and said, I'm on my way to the office.

I'm writing up an arrest warrant, but like, don't take him into custody until we have the arrest warrant.

So he's just in the house with all these, this FBI and police writing this confession.

And it sounds like when you look at the troopers who are present, they start texting each other around midnight getting like, I don't know, Ibrahim's getting kind of fidgety.

Things are getting a little bit weird.

Like watch yourself.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's feeling...

Suddenly Ibrahim flips a table, an FBI agent, and then charged a trooper.

It's kind of with a broom, maybe, it's unclear.

And he gets shot.

They said that first they shoot him, he goes down, he gets back up, he keeps running.

He ends up getting shot seven times because the FBI claims that they fear for their life.

Well, there goes your evidence.

They cleared the agent.

But yeah, it just kind of like abruptly ended this confession that was happening.

They had all this audio and video of the entire like interrogation, but interestingly, no audio or video of the actual shooting.

In shooting?

Wow.

That sounds suspicious.

So based on police records, here is what Ibrahim had allegedly said during this whole interrogation confession.

He claims that he met Tamerlan outside of the gym, and the two agreed to do a robbery.

They went to the apartment with a gun, because all these characters, by the way, work out at the gym together.

They go to the same boxing gym.

I don't know if I said that.

I said that they went on.

They're all bros.

Ibrahim says he met Tamerlan outside of the gym, and the two agreed to do a robbery.

They went to the apartment with a gun, and Brendan let them in because they're all buddies.

They'd all hung out before.

Ibrahim claims that they tied him up and beat Brendan until he told him where the money was.

There was obviously more money present besides just the $5,000 that was sprinkled over the bodies.

Wait, so they went to-

Brendan messed his house.

Right, whose apartment?

Oh, Raffi's apartment was-

Dropped separately.

Okay, okay.

The plan was to leave them there, but he said Tamerlan didn't want to leave any witnesses behind.

And Ibrahim was like, well, I didn't sign on for this.

So, likely story, his claim is, I stepped outside, I had no part of the murder, I couldn't stomach it.

Tamerlan slipped their necks.

And all in all, they estimate over $100,000 was stolen from the apartment.

Oh my gosh.

Who has $100,000 in their apartment?

Like, I know it's not the detail we should be thinking.

Also, like...

Well, I don't know, if they're illegally selling marijuana, you got a lot of cash.

You probably can't just be like, depositing all this in the bank, right?

Because you gotta like, where's that money coming from?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Was there talent, too?

Yeah, maybe they were stealing other things.

Yeah, like objects of value.

So even though there aren't, no one has been officially charged, in fact, the police, law enforcement says that like, Tamerlan and Ibrahim were really just persons of interest in this murder.

They've never been named official suspects.

How?

But there is so much circumstantial evidence on top of this alleged confession.

So the neighbor's windows were all open.

Nobody heard anything.

So again, indicating that maybe the people knew, yeah, that they knew.

There was no forced entry.

There was no like, take, I'm taking it back because you just came into my home, right?

There were two witnesses who reported seeing two males enter the apartment at 9 p.m.

That's the perfect time for this 8.54, 9.14 window.

Also the week of the murders, Catherine, Tamerlan's wife's computer was used to Google, quote, three men killed in Waltham.

Waltham.

Quote, men killed in Waltham, end quote.

And quote, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

Wait, Tamerlan's wife's computer.

Yeah, so it could have either been her Googling or it could have been him Googling on her computer.

Just to see if he's convicted.

And then, Jacquard, who was the younger bomber, right?

He's not really involved in this story, but the younger son, the younger brother who was the bomber, his roommate says that he claimed that like his, his roommate had told him, had sort of implied that maybe Tamerlan had, you know, committed a murder in Waltham.

Oh, wow.

Tamerlan's phone records put him near Brendan's apartment, but also, like I said, they lived blocks from each other.

So it's hard to say, like, is that because he was in the apartment?

Right.

There were a bunch of people who were questioned by reporters for this story, and like they all kind of got weird things happened to them all, okay?

So like Ibrahim's girlfriend, Tatiana, she got deported.

She says ICE told her it was because of an interview she did about this murder.

So to be clear, her visa had expired.

She was released.

She was supposed to have like another year, and then all of a sudden they just deported her to Moscow.

But I'm like, that's weird.

They said she was fine.

She does this interview, and then this ICE agent is like, you're being deported because you did an interview about this.

And then Ibrahim's best friend was actually with him when the police and the FBI were interrogating him.

And they had him staying outside, waiting outside, and this went on and on and on.

They sent him home.

He said about an hour after he left, Ibrahim was shot.

So that's weird.

He had a friend with him, and he doesn't get shot until all the witnesses leave.

Also, why is the friend with him?

That's weird, too.

I don't know.

But the friend went to Russia to visit family and then was not permitted back on the plane despite the fact that he had a green card.

And so he will no longer speak to any press about this.

He's like, I want that whole period of my life.

I don't want to talk about it.

I don't...

Wow.

Ibrahim's other buddy, Asher, he'd been questioned by the FBI.

And then after the FBI shot Ibrahim, Asher was like, I don't actually want to talk to you anymore because I'm afraid for my life.

He gets pulled over by an undercover cop pulling over for an expired license near Universal Studios.

But all these people are like, I talk to the press, I talk to the police, I'm like, and then my life was ruined.

So that's just a little weird side story.

Yeah, don't snitch.

So like talking about the conspiracies now, getting into the conspiracies.

So I think there's a number of them here.

So the first obvious is like, why wasn't this investigated better?

Why was this all, was this just like shoddy police work or was this all like a cover up?

Could arresting Tamerlan have prevented the Boston Marathon, right?

Yeah, so the defense for Jacaar wanted to kind of portray Tamerlan as like the main malevolent force.

Right.

So one of the theories is that people didn't really want to investigate this even later because they didn't want, everyone just wanted him to be tried, found guilty, put to death, help with like Boston healing, if you will.

Oh, I see.

It's cleaner.

Yeah.

So if we investigate this and we have information about Tamerlan's violent history and then people get sympathetic to Jakar and then maybe he doesn't get the death penalty and like this is all, we don't want any of that to happen.

So far as the younger brother.

Correct.

And the other one, the older one.

The shot.

Yeah, he passed.

Yes.

So that's one of the theories is that, yes, if they revealed more about what Tamerlan may have done or was suspected to have done before the bombing, then maybe this would affect, even after he was found guilty like this could affect appeals, could affect death penalty arguments, could have just been a systemic failure.

But again, like it's so bizarre to me that the friends were like, we think it could have been our friend, and just everyone was like, no, that's not true.

It's fine.

No one investigated.

That's wild.

One of the theories is that Tamerlan might have been a government informant.

And then the theory is that if he was an informant, Ibrahim's bizarre death by the FBI could have been their way of trying to conceal something, like maybe he knew that Tamerlan was an FBI informant.

And so just to keep this clean, Tamerlan's dead, let's kill Ibrahim and be done with it.

That's the theory.

Because again, he was shot.

I mean, we don't know, right?

I always say like, you don't know what it's like, what's going through law enforcement's mind as someone is coming at you and you feel threatened.

Yeah.

But like seven shots feels like a lot of shots.

For this guy who was found to not have, there's rumors he maybe had a knife, but when they found him, there was no weapon on him.

Like after he died, there's no evidence he had any weapon.

So was he just running at them?

Seven shots, that feels like a lot.

It's like Bourbon Boy.

Yeah.

What would he say?

He would say, it's a split second decision, and you never know how anyone's going to react by shock.

He might just have kept shooting because he got up and went right back after him.

I don't know what I would do in that situation either.

Would I keep shooting?

I don't know.

It's like, you don't know what you're going to do.

Your body is going to act.

Again, you and I have talked about this, but like if you, no one knows how they're going to react, and you don't know who this person is, what he's going to do.

Right.

And you can sit back and study people's behavior, but you never know how you will react in the moment.

So it's easier to study the behavior after the fact.

You know?

Yeah, so it's easy for us all to sit around and go frame by frame on the video and make an assessment of what should have been done.

Yeah.

Well, during Jakaar's trial in 2014, his defense lawyers filed a motion claiming that the FBI had attempted to recruit Tamerlan as an informant to report on the Chechen and Muslim community.

And the lawyers said they learned about this from family members and other sources.

Okay.

So this gets into what I kind of implied earlier.

What makes this even, this whole story even sadder to me, is the fact that Tamerlan was on the terrorist watchlist, but does not appear to have ever been investigated.

Unless the theory is he was investigated and they said, you become an informant for us and, you know, will look the other way.

Why was he on the-

Don't like that kind of deal.

I'm so happy you asked.

So this is all sweet and sadder, though.

The reason he's on the watchlist is not even because of our good investigative work.

It's because of the good investigative work of the Russians.

Wow.

So in 2011, the Russian government had flagged Tamerlan and his mother.

Because remember I told you his mother was actually-

Kind of a cracker.

Yeah, she was a home health aid, and she was also kind of getting into this extremist ideology.

Yeah.

And her patients talk about how she and even him sometimes, Tamerlan would come over, but would be trying to convince people of these crazy conspiracy theories and trying to convert people.

That's weird.

So in 2011, the Russian government had flagged both Tamerlan and his mother as becoming radicalized.

And they told the United States, they were tracking the internet activity here, and this guy looks suspicious.

So they went and interviewed him in April, and he again gets put on the watch list.

But what's interesting, too, is the fact that he's on the watch list.

He then gets, this whole crime happens, and he books a six month trip to Russia.

And they let him go.

And he just got to go, and no one said, like, hey, what are...

Well, Russia let him in?

Yeah, or like, what are you doing in Russia?

What were you doing in Russia?

What's going on?

Wait, so he was on the terrorist list before the murder?

Yeah.

From his internet activity.

And Russia found him, but then...

Told the United States, hey, you need to watch this guy.

Yeah, but then, then he fled to Russia?

Well, he went to Russia for six months, and the theory is that he was already sort of getting radicalized.

And then he went there.

He spent six months in Russia, and that's really where he got, like, even further radicalized and started learning how to, like, be a terrorist.

But then, that was after the 2011 crime.

This was right after the crime?

Yeah.

Because I get into that, that one of the theories is, he used the money from that robbery to fund this trip that he took, and then became a terrorist, right?

So, like, was this robbery all to fund his terrorist?

Right.

Whatever.

But we're going to get to that.

2011.

But he was on the watch list before the murder.

Okay.

The murder happens.

He spends six months in Russia.

Okay.

But then, so how did Russia, okay, you probably don't know the answer to this, but.

Why did no one stop this?

I don't know.

Why did nobody?

Yeah.

Well, how did he get in?

Yeah.

And then why weren't they watching him in Russia?

Yeah.

I don't know.

So then again, if you believe, so then you're like, well, how did all this happen?

And again, one of the ways that people think like, well, maybe this could have happened.

Like, maybe the reason he wasn't invested, like, if you're like, you're on the terrorist watchlist, then this murder happened.

Everyone's saying, look at this guy who happens to be on our terrorist watchlist.

Like, why wouldn't they do anything?

Again, is it because it's shoddy police work?

Or had they made a deal with him?

Because again, remember, he, for whatever reason, he was not able to get his citizenship before all this.

And he couldn't go compete national, so he couldn't go to the Olympics.

So one of the theories is that maybe he was desperate to become a US citizen.

The government makes this deal with him.

He also had a previous arrest for domestic violence.

So either he got arrest for domestic violence and they said, hey, let's make a deal here.

We'll trade you citizenship for being an informant.

Or were they like, hey, you were flagged for your internet activities, you would inform for us.

Maybe we'll give you citizenship.

Maybe we'll look the other way, I mean, you know, whatever.

So that is the theory.

And that the reason then why Ibrahim was killed is because the FBI was trying to cover up the fact that like, we had this guy working for us and then he went on and committed the Boston Marathon bombing.

That's not a good look.

No, that's, mm-mm.

Then there's a question about, you know, we've just, the accepted story is that this was Ibrahim and this was Tamerlan who committed this triple homicide, right?

But what if there was someone else involved, which would make this a real conspiracy?

Oh my God.

Brother?

Is it the brother?

No.

What if it was?

Mom.

Hibba, the ex-girlfriend of Brendan Mess.

Found them?

Mm-hmm.

So did she not have an appropriate response when she found them?

Well, like, why was she there to find them?

They had broken up.

Like, here's the deal.

So Hibba had girls are crazy.

Yeah, girls are crazy.

So Hibba had quite a temper.

Hibba had quite a temper.

We know that Eric and Rafi didn't like her.

In fact, she had thrown a knife at Rafi during an argument.

So he was like, I'm not coming over to your apartment, Brendan, anymore, if Hibba is there.

Oh, so she's crazy.

And then Hibba and Brendan had actually broken up.

And it was a very, very violent breakup.

She broke Brendan's TV.

She slashed his tires.

Oh, she's not.

And she booked a one-way ticket to Miami, Florida.

And then on Monday, September 12th, she returned to the home and had to be leaded by the landlord.

And then again, she finds these bodies.

But everyone's like, you guys had broken up.

So why'd you show up on September 12th to this?

From Miami.

Apartment.

And then she's like, well, we hadn't really broken up.

We were on a break.

Said the crazy.

It sounds like a crazy ex-girlfriend.

Yeah.

It sounds like what you would say if you were like, we always do this, we break up and then get back together.

He knew we weren't over.

But what makes her more interesting is that she had three ex-lovers all die in the same month.

What?

So are the odds.

That's suspicious.

In what way?

Well, I'm gonna tell it now.

I'm so happy you are giving hired hitmen.

It's giving, we know true crime.

So on September 1st, her ex-boyfriend, Jamari Smith, was killed in Henrico County, Virginia.

On September 1st, apparently, he had tried to steal marijuana from a man.

This man-

What, he just dates marijuana dealers?

Yeah, well, they said that her and Brendan's relationship was very drug-fueled and, you know.

So he tried to steal marijuana from a man who pulled a weapon and shot him.

And she was like, also, I haven't seen him for a year, so I had nothing to do with that.

I mean, okay, I'll give her that.

And people were like, this is kind of a stretch because even the guy who shot her who's in jail is like, we were just in the wrong place.

He tried to steal from me.

I got pissed.

I shot him.

It's unfortunate.

We were both in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This shouldn't have happened.

So it's not like, I don't know.

It's like a weird set up.

Like this guy came and robbed me.

Also September.

And she set that up.

I'll give her that one.

In October of 2011, her husband, all these people, by the way, who have boyfriends, like Ibrahim.

Ibrahim had a wife who tried to alibi him, but it's all come out.

I deleted this whole thing that she was lying about everything, so I didn't even want to include that.

But they all have wives and significant others, you know?

Anyway.

So then, October, her husband was shot, and this was ruled a suicide.

And apparently, Hibba and this ex-husband had orchestrated at least three robberies together, and when he was found, he had a handwritten note inside a Bible that said Hibba was attempting to frame him for the Waltham murders.

And then we have Brendan Mess.

So all three of these people die in a one-month period.

Oh, that's weird.

And then there was a quote in the Boston Globe that she and Tamerlan had actually become really close friends.

They would share stories of their distaste for American culture, and that she was also pretty aggressive, violent, and kind of radicalized.

So was she involved in this whole setup?

This is Hibba.

Hibba, yeah.

So was it was it Ibrahim and Tamlin?

Ibrahim and Tamlin?

Or was it Ibrahim, Tamlin, and Tamlin?

I think you might have been saying Tamlin.

It's Tamerlan.

I was.

I kept, when I was writing this, I was like, I'm gonna have such a problem with-

A court of thumb.

A court of, yes.

Yeah, it's Tamerlan.

It's Tamerlan.

Yeah.

Okay.

That seems like something I would do though, because when I was writing this whole time, I was like, I'm gonna go a bit back and forth between Akatar.

Was she like, you know, F the Americans and she kind of helped set this whole thing up?

I don't know, but it's fishy.

Yeah, she is suspicious.

And then the last part of this conspiracy, the last kind of conspiracy theory is really like, what is the motive here, right?

So why did they kill their friends?

I mean, there were all these rumors, there's not good evidence, but there's all these rumors that Tamerlan had been like, judgmental about the lifestyle that Brendan Mess was living, and that's sort of why they had kind of grown apart.

Again, the murder was against two, maybe three Jews.

So was that part of, did that play a role?

The fact that the murders happened on the 10-year anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, what are the odds?

Like, that feels very symbolic.

And then again, the fact that the theory is that the motive for these murders was robbery.

Like initially the police were like, it wasn't robbery because there was five grand left, right?

But then we find out that, no, they had all this money to spend afterwards.

Rafi's house was robbed also.

So maybe they did, they did steal money, right?

There was a robbery.

And if they used this money to fund their acts of terrorism that came later, including the Boston Marathon, then terrorism would have to be the motive, right?

It sounds like he had, again, with his like frustration about how he wanted to go to Harvard, but he didn't have the grades.

He wanted to be an Olympian, but he couldn't go to nationals.

That he was getting very resentful of people who were successful and stereotypically, right?

Jewish people are successful and he couldn't catch a break.

And so they said that there's all this evidence he'd been making anti-Semitic comments as far back as 2009.

He also was very deep into these 9-11 conspiracy theories that Israel was to blame for 9-11.

And so, again, the series, he had all these big grandiose plans that weren't coming to fruition.

And it's easier to just say like the government is the problem.

I have no control over my success or failure.

This has all been done to me, and the Jews are doing this to me.

And so that is the theory.

Was that the motive?

Was it like anti-Semitic?

Was it just like F America?

Or was it just money?

Was it just I need money to fund my take down of America?

Probably all of it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if it's one, just one.

He sounds mentally ill.

Yeah.

Well, definitely mentally ill.

Definitely mentally ill.

So that is what I have.

That is so interesting.

I think they did it.

Yeah.

It doesn't really feel like there's a mystery.

I also don't know why the government is like, well, they're just persons of interest because they're dead.

So we can't really, I feel like, I feel like when a crime happens and the suspect is killed, they should still investigate because isn't the family still deserve some closure?

Well, not to press this, but like you should investigate just to clear.

Was it a right to a fair trial and they can't have a fair trial if they're dead?

We may have to try them, but I feel like them being like, we're just going to name them persons of interest.

We're not going to call them suspects and we're just going to like leave this here.

And then I just think about, yeah, again, like in the documentary, they interviewed all these spin members who were just like, we were just told like, this is what he gets because he's a drug dealer.

And then no one ever investigated again.

No one will tell us anything.

Also, like, what if, I mean, it was only 2011.

Different times back then.

But yeah, I feel like they could still be like, listen, yeah, I mean, I guess, I don't know what the right answer is, but I do feel like they should be able to be like, look, we have a partial written confession from this guy.

We have all this evidence.

We can assume, I don't know.

I don't know what the answer is, but anyway.

Or just move them to suspect instead of person of interest.

Yeah.

What's the difference in crime lingo?

Well, person of interest is not, that's less serious.

You're not necessarily a suspect.

You're like, they might just have information that could help solve this case.

That's usually what a person of interest is.

That's what I'd say.

Where you just end.

Okay, flex, Megan.

I know.

That wasn't flex, Megan.

We all agree, Tamerlan and Ibrahim did this.

Pus Minus Hiba might have been involved.

I don't know.

Or maybe she just has like the worst luck and lives a dangerous life with criminals and drug users.

Yeah.

I tend to lean towards it was the two guys and this girl just doesn't make good choices, doesn't have, isn't surrounded by people who make good choices as well, and therefore is more likely to be involved with shady things.

What do you think about the theory that, like, about why Tamerlan was known to be on the terrorism watchlist, but it seems, sounds like was never investigated.

Do you think that he was an informant?

Do you think it was just a failure of the say?

No, I feel like we would have heard.

Well, I don't know, but they keep it secret like that.

That's the whole point.

Because if they're like, he was our informant, and then our informant ended up doing one of the largest terrorism attacks in American soil, that's not a good look for the FBI.

Right, no, it's not a good look.

I mean, it's not a good look for him to have been on the terrorist watch list.

Watch this, but not been watched closely enough.

And then just baseline.

Anyway, it is wild to me that we all know about the Boston Marathon bombing, but I think as far as I know, I don't really know many people who have heard this story.

No.

And the little brother didn't have anything connected?

No, I couldn't find any kind of association with this, except that he obviously knew about it because there are rumors.

His roommate also was kind of a sketchy dude.

His roommate, do you remember that?

The little brother's roommate?

The little brother's roommate at college took his computer and hid it.

And so people were like, why did he help out this terrorist?

And so he was trying to make a plea deal and he was like, well, I have information.

I know that his brother, you know, killed these three people.

He told me that.

But no one would offer a plea deal.

He served six years in prison for his participation in obstruction of justice or whatever.

But it sounds like if you believe his story, then like the little brother knew that he had killed people.

But I don't think there's any evidence that the little brother was present at the murder.

I just say that.

I mean, he killed people.

So like if you're willing to kill people, you're probably willing to hide the fact that your brother killed people.

Has he been killed?

I mean, yeah.

I would just google that.

He's still alive.

Well, I know there was, they tried waiting death, which then that asked me, like he's in Colorado, awaiting death penalty because they reversed it in 2020.

And then the Supreme Court was like in 2022, was like, no.

So the reason they reversed it though, interestingly, was because they complained that all of this information that his defense team, if they had all this information, it would have been helpful because it could have, again, kind of painted the picture I told you of like, the brother was violent and problematic.

And kind of brainwashed his younger brother.

So he was the real bad guy and the younger brother was just like a young, naive kid.

So because they were like, we didn't have this information, we didn't get to present this case, they appealed it.

And then I think initially one and then they came back and said, right, because I would have said that they won and then they came back and they said, the Supreme Court apparently got involved and was like, no, no.

Yeah.

They were like, that's, we have no proof that would have changed anything.

And so the death penalty stands, but you know, when you get the death penalty, it takes like decades, you get automatic appeals, all that stuff.

Yeah, how long does it take to actually?

Takes a long time.

Because what do they have to do?

They have to prove things before they can actually do it?

Or like?

No, no, no, you just have to, it's like, you don't, I do know there's mandatory appeals.

Like usually, right, you get found guilty and you can choose if you want to appeal or not.

But because it's like someone's life, you go through all of these steps to be like, absolutely certain that this person deserves to die.

Yeah.

Well, and I also know that I listened to, I listened to Ear Hustle back in the day, which is still out, but Ear Hustle is a podcast by prisoners.

And they talk about prison life and they talk about-

Still in prison?

Yes, although it's been out for so long that some of them have gotten out of prison.

But they talk about how actually in California, the best place to be is on death row because no one actually gets put to death in California, but you get better food.

You have like private rooms.

Of course, only California.

Yeah, so I get that.

I am not surprised.

You are better fed.

You have better rooms because you're gonna be put to death, even though you will never see death.

Exactly.

Which means your crime was absolutely heinous.

Well, does the death penalty, like does every state kill people?

No.

Or if you're on death row, do you get sent to the state?

Well, you would only be death row somewhere where you kill people.

That's why sometimes people will try.

Like he killed people in Massachusetts.

Yeah.

Does Massachusetts have a death penalty?

No.

But then how is he on death row?

He's in Colorado right now.

Do you know what I mean?

Oh, but it's probably because it's a federal.

That was a federal.

OK.

Massachusetts has no death penalty.

But it must have been.

But the Mossamara-Thon bomber was this came up.

And I didn't even ask the question, but they're always listening that he was prosecuted under federal law, not state law.

And so that's why he got a death penalty.

State crimes that lead to death row?

Well, I think if there wasn't the terrorism charge, like I think if he...

Well, that's why they're trying the Charlie Kirk shooter in Utah, because there's a death penalty in Utah.

But I thought the Charlie Kirk shooter also was going to be getting some sort of terrorism charge.

There was something related to the fact that other people could have been harmed, right?

So what they're doing is they're trying them in the state first because of the death penalty.

And then it'll go on to federal if.

Yeah, I think too you'll find like some of these like...

Like if you commit homicide in mass, you're fine.

But if you commit homicide in Utah, you could be killed.

Exactly.

So that's why sometimes serial killers like Ted Bundy.

Sorry, another question.

Is homicide always state or federal crime?

Well, I think generally it's a state crime, except there can be components like, for example, with the Boston Marathon bombing, it was a terrorism charge, right?

Yeah, and that's another one.

That's what they're saying about Charlie Kirk, because it's like a terroristic attack.

And Luigi, they say, is terrorist.

Yeah, but actually didn't they drop the charge for the federal because they said it actually wasn't a terrorist?

Oh, no, they dropped him to second degree, which I think the man, if he did it, if he is the person who did it, then he stalked, and then they're saying it's not premeditated, but I'm like, how could it not be premeditated?

Because this man, he followed him to New York.

He wrote a manifesto about it.

How was that not premeditated?

But some of these serial killers, who would I just say?

Ted Bundy.

Like Ted Bundy, who killed people in multiple states, they make the choice to like, we're gonna try him, he got tried in Florida, right?

Because they're like, we know that Florida has a death penalty.

So sometimes they will prioritize, he killed him in multiple states, these states have a death penalty, these states don't, so we're gonna try them in death-empty states first, in hopes that...

And that's the government making that decision.

Correct.

Yeah, the prosecutors, I guess, like kind of work together.

That's great.

Yeah.

Okay, so interesting story.

Definitely too bad, if you think about, not even just like the people who died, the four days of terrorism against Bostonians, but like the hundreds of people who lost limbs and have trauma.

Remember that picture that was in the news of somebody who made the tourniquet?

Or, it wasn't, no, they were holding his artery in their hand.

Remember the guy who got his leg cut, and the person next to him was holding, like squeezing his artery shut in his leg?

Do you remember that picture?

You're talking about the Boston Marathon?

Yeah.

No.

Boston Strong, right?

Is that what you say?

Yeah.

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Kait, what should the people do?

I want, right now, I want you to scroll on down, leave us a five-star review, leave us a comment, share us with your friends and family, and after you share it with your friends and family, I want you to take out your phone and text three people who are interested in terrorism.

Jesus Christ!

Do not do that.

I knew you were going to say that.

I could feel it coming.

I was like, she doesn't know what else to say.

Why don't you send it to a true crime aficionado and see what they think?

That was a joke.

Bad joke.

Bad joke.

Don't do terrorism, kids.

It's not funny!

I'm being totally a Chandler Bing, where I'm like, this is uncomfortable.

Let me make more jokes.

Send it to three people who are true crime aficionados.

And we will see you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday.