The Century Long Debate Regarding Fluoridation: Medical Breakthrough or Government Conspiracy?

**Discussion begins at 6:00**

In 1901, Frederick McKay was a dentist who opened a practice in Colorado Springs and found that his patients all seemed to have stained/mottled teeth, but no cavities.  Why was this?  He determined, after nearly 30 years and with the help of other researchers, that they all had what is now called fluorosis – and it was the result of high levels of fluoride in the Colorado Springs drinking water.  He reported his findings to the dental community, and people started comparing fluoride levels and dental hygiene in various geographical areas. In the 1930s, a dentist with the US Public Health Service, sought to determine how high the level of fluoride in the water could be before it caused mottling, in hopes they could remove fluoride from water sources where there were higher levels.  During his study, he learned that low doses had a protective effect.  It was reported that when natural fluoride concentration was greater than 1 part per million, the incidence of cavities was seen to be reduced by some 50-65% and the World Health Organization began to recommend supplemental fluoride where levels were low.

In the 1940s and 50s, there was a push to fluoridate water in the US and Canada, reportedly in an attempt to improve dental health.  This practice was immediately divisive, and remains that way today.  Today, the American Dental Association remains a strong advocate of adding fluoride to water and estimates that every dollar spent on fluoridation saves about fifty dollars in future dental expenses.  Nonetheless, for the last7 0 years there have been people who felt that the government had and continues to have a more nefarious goal… Was this all a communist plot to undermine American health or control the population?  Other critics note similarities between MK Ultra studies and fluoridating water.   The potential goal of mind control was even referenced in the 1964 political satire Dr Strangelove – in which one of the characters, General Jack D. Ripper believes that fluoridation of public water supplies is a Communist conspiracy designed to weaken American willpower. He sees it as a sinister plot to destroy "our precious bodily fluids".  Was this all a conspiracy to cover up and get rid of fluoride, an industrial waste product of fertilizer?  Finally, there are those who believe that water fluoridation is an infringement of individual rights - similar to mass medication or vaccination without consent.  Additional concerns surround the potential negative health effects including bone cancer, thyroid issues, and cognitive deficits in children – but what is the truth?    Is fluoride in our water a cheap and effective way to improve dental health?  Or is there something more sinister at play?

Transcript

Hey, guys.

Hey, how's it going?

How's it going?

You've got two SchemeQueens today.

Two again.

Oh, but we had a good stretch there.

Yeah, we had a good run.

Yeah.

Colleen went to the National Aquarium to look and see if the eels were swimming towards the...

Bermuda Triangle?

Yeah, the Bermuda Triangle.

I think she's also checking out the octopi and the other potential alien creatures that live under the sea.

Yeah, I definitely believe octopi.

We know, we know.

Okay.

We're going to talk more about that in a couple weeks.

Yeah, for our season.

Season.

Part two.

What have you been up to?

Anything?

Moves all done?

Moves are all done.

It's a lot of stress for...

Like, I feel like it should be like no stress, but it's a lot of stress.

And then you get moved, and you're like, it's like, I can breathe again.

And you start unpacking, and now we're in the fun part where I like need to go shopping and find some new furniture and that kind of stuff.

So we're in the fun part of the move now.

I love that for you.

Yeah.

Now I just need to stop taking my kids back and forth to school, because that is a lot.

Well, there's only one more week, right?

Three more days.

Three more.

Also, to be fair, when this comes out, it'll be over.

Also, these kids, you could pretty much not take them to school.

I don't go to school anyway.

But you know what I did mention, like, do you guys want to go to the last day of school?

And Patch was like, yeah, I'm going to miss my teacher.

I was like, oh.

Well, you should enjoy that because, you know, the last like in high school, the last day of school was always optional.

But my parents always made us go to the last day of school.

Unless we had all of our grades, because she thought that like, if we were on the cusp and we went to school and we're the only person at school, that the teachers might round us up.

So we were always like the the losers who went to school.

Like literally, there are probably three people in each class.

I don't remember the last days of school being optional when I grew up, but maybe...

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it was optional.

I just feel like it was like understood that nothing was happening.

It was like a short day.

Right.

Most people didn't go.

I also don't remember getting out of school early on the last day of school.

Like both kids are getting out of school early.

And I don't remember getting out early the last days of school.

I feel like we did a full day and then the summer.

I mean, probably because again, these kids never go to school, never go to school.

And then they do go to school.

They're going to the pumpkin patch for a field trip or...

Yeah, that wasn't educational.

That was fun.

But you know what?

They can have fun.

Or they get, they're at double recess.

Oh yeah, they're double recess right now.

Yeah.

Anyway, I'm just a curmudgeon without kids who's like children these days are gonna be stupid because they...

Well, I mean, aren't they like not doing as well as they used to?

Yeah, because they're not in schools much.

We've got 87,000 holidays.

We have early releases.

These kids just like, like what our one friend is like her kids ask if it's a five day week because it's so uncommon to have a five day week.

And then they get annoyed when it's a full week.

Like we always had a full week.

I just think that, yeah, also part of the curriculum, I think the like, you know, there's zero like accountability for not having, for having failing grades.

Also, yeah, is that rule now that these kids can like repeat assignments also.

So like if they fail, I'm like there's zero accountability.

And also, you know, they're at a bit of a disadvantage because their IQ is probably three points lower from their mothers consuming fluoridated water.

Yeah, exactly.

So anyway, so, so speaking of, I guess let's get into our drink check.

Drink check.

So today, we're drinking.

My favorite thing to drink ever.

And Megan's least favorite thing to drink.

We're drinking water.

But we're drinking two different types of water here because your water gets filtered at home through a...

Yeah, a Berkey filter.

A Berkey filter, which you said removes all the fluoride, right?

Mine's just coming out of the fridge.

Yeah.

I don't think that removes it.

No.

Yeah.

You can put a whole filtering, water filtering system in, like, when you're under your sink that will filter out.

Fluoride?

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, to be clear, I don't really care that much.

I know.

I've thought about it.

So, all right.

So, we'll get into it today, guys, because today we are talking about water fluoridation.

Yes.

Okay.

You know, love him, hate him, think he's crazy or not.

This is a big RFK talking point right now.

Bobby Kennedy.

So, I was like, I got to be honest.

I work in health care.

I've never really cared enough to think about the fluoride in our water.

So, I really just started this as like a, I wanted to educate myself and then I was like, Kate, there are conspiracy theories.

So, I was like, what do you know about the fluoridated water?

And I was like, something about like neuro, it can give you like neuro symptoms.

I don't know.

I was like, I am on that side of the social media, the social media platforms and do see all of the things about fluoridated water and fluoride.

I have fallen into the trap of like not buying fluoride.

Like I've done toothpaste without fluoride, but like, to be honest, I just don't feel like my mouth is as clean.

Okay, well, I don't think that toothpaste with fluoride in your toothpaste is the problem.

Okay?

And we're going to talk about that.

I agree.

Because that's topical application, you're not swallowing it, but we'll talk about that.

Okay.

Although, Kait also said to me, I said, you know, there's some interesting breaking news from 2025 about fluoride in like pregnant women consuming fluoride in their water and like newborns or, you know, infants who are formula fed and getting water put into their formula and the fluoride from that.

There's new research on that we're going to talk about.

And Kait was like, well, we used bottled water in the formula.

And I said, Kait, I hate to break it to you.

Unless the water says fluoride free, your bottled water has fluoride in it.

That's crazy.

You know what else has fluoride in it?

It's my diet coke.

Yeah, this is a lot of like microdosing.

But maybe that's counteracting, like the phosphoric acid that is breaking down my tooth enamel, and then like I'm getting fluoride in.

Anyway, we're going to go into all this today, guys.

To be clear, I will never not stop drinking water.

No one's telling you to stop drinking water.

It's about the answer, to be clear, the answer here is not, no matter what you decide at the end, I think there's other options before just no water.

If there's no water, I'm dead.

Well, we'd all be dead without water.

Yeah, but I think you could survive longer than me.

Here we go.

In 1901, Frederick McKay, who was a dentist, he opened a practice in Colorado Springs and found that his patients all seemed to have stained, mottled teeth, but no cavities.

Why was this?

He determined after nearly 30 years, and with the help of other researchers, they all had what is now called fluorosis, and it was the result of high levels of fluoride in the Colorado Springs drinking water.

He reported his findings to the dental community and people started comparing fluoride levels and dental hygiene in various geographical areas.

So they found this association.

Discolored teeth seemed to be a result of high fluoride content in the water because there are some places that naturally have high fluoride content.

Okay.

So as they're doing the research here, like, hey, how much fluoride is too much fluoride?

And at what point should we start removing it?

They realize that low doses of fluoride actually had a protective effect on the teeth.

It was reported that when natural fluoride concentration was greater than one part per million, the incidence of cavities was seen to be reduced by 50 to 65 percent, and the World Health Organization began to recommend supplemental fluoride where levels were low.

Okay.

In the 1940s and 50s, there was a push to fluoridate water in the US and Canada, reportedly in an attempt to improve dental health.

This practice was immediately divisive and remains that way today.

So this debate we're having has been going on for over a century.

This is not a new debate.

Whoa.

Today, the American Dental Association remains a strong advocate of adding fluoride to water and estimates that every dollar spent on fluoridation saves about $50 in future dental expenses.

Nonetheless, for the last 70 years, there have been people who felt the government had and continues to have a more nefarious goal.

Was this all a communist plot to undermine American health or control the population?

Whoa.

Other critics note similarities between MK Ultra studies and fluoridating water.

Whoa.

The potential goal of mind control was even referenced in the 1964 political satire, Dr Strangelove.

Have you seen it?

No.

Now, we watched it in high school film study.

Oh.

But in the movie, one of the characters, General Jack D.

Ripper, believes that fluoridation of public water supplies is a communist conspiracy designed to weaken American willpower.

He sees it as a sinister plot to destroy, quote, our precious bodily fluids, end quote.

Whoa.

Or was this all a conspiracy to cover up and get rid of fluoride, an industrial waste product of fertilizer and aluminum?

Whoa.

Finally, there are those who believe that water fluoridation is an infringement of individual rights, similar to mass medication or vaccination without consent.

Additional concerns surround the potential negative health effects including bone cancer, thyroid issues, and cognitive deficits in children.

But what is the truth?

Is fluoride in our water a cheap and effective way to improve dental health or is there something more sinister at play?

Okay.

What do you think, Kait?

I think that I don't know if I necessarily believe it's like all for mind control and like a communist thing.

I think it's definitely just like, hey, like dental health is well, let's be real, like dentists charge an arm and a leg.

Dental insurance is expensive.

Like it's not really something like people can have like Medicaid, right?

Like dentists.

Yeah, our eyes and our teeth aren't ever included in our health insurance.

Right, right.

It's not part, it's like on top of everything else.

So I do think it was like probably a way of like, let's how can we like make this a public health thing to help people with their teeth?

I mean, because if you have rotting teeth, you have poor health and you can cause other problems, bigger problems than just your health.

So I don't necessarily believe that it's like nefarious.

But I do believe that it shouldn't be in the water.

Okay.

Why do you think that?

Because I do, I do think that like, all of the studies are saying that it's like not healthy for us.

Well, I don't know if all of the studies are saying that.

Okay.

Most of them?

Some of them.

Okay.

All right, okay.

That's my thought.

Oh, I appreciate that.

You know what?

This kind of felt, I was a little concerned about doing this episode because this hippie shit is like sew up Kate's alley.

And I was afraid she was going to be better informed than I am on the topic.

So, yeah.

I know there's lots of things that I think that like, I'm more into than fluoride in the water.

Okay.

You have bigger concerns than fluoride.

I have bigger concerns, but also I'm just like, I never took the time to like research it.

And I'm just kind of like, am I going to like change the world?

I don't know.

It's a lot of effort to like, you know?

You can only do so much.

That's what I think.

Well, you're not going to have to research it because hopefully in under an hour here, I'm going to give you all the facts.

Okay.

Okay.

So let's talk about, what was your major, chemistry, biology?

Health science.

I thought you were a chemistry major.

I started as a chemistry major.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's talk about hydroxyapatite.

Hydroxyapatite.

Okay.

Do you know what it is?

You heard of it?

No.

Okay.

Really?

This is the main component of our teeth.

It is a naturally occurring mineral.

The formula, does this mean?

H-O-H.

No, it's calcium 5, and then it's phosphorus 3.

So is that 3 phosphorus molecules with a, I don't know.

It's pretty much made up of calcium and phosphorus.

But why is it called hydroxy?

It just, I wrote formula, CA5PO43.

Oh, I cut off part of it.

It's CA5PO43, and then I forgot an oxygen and hydrogen at the end.

So anyway, this is what makes our tooth enamel and bones hard.

But the substance is also prone to damage by acids, which can cause cavities.

Pretty much the way it works is like we eat sugar, and then streptococcus mutans, which is a bacteria that's found in our mouth, feeds on the sugar and metabolizes them, converting them to acids, which damage the hydroxy appetite and cause cavities.

So one of the ways we can prevent cavities is to consume fluoride in our diets or to topically apply them to our teeth.

And then this gets incorporated into your teeth, creates the substance called fluorapatite, which is more acid stable and also interferes with the bacterial conversion of sugars into acids.

Okay.

So that's like the background, the research, the theoretical research, right?

So in the 40s, interesting, interesting fact.

In the 1940s, if you wanted to join the military, you had to have six teeth up top and six teeth below.

Whoa, that's it?

You would say that's it, but 10% of all people were rejected because they couldn't meet this criteria.

Whoa.

So it was the number one cause of people not being able to serve.

I would have guessed flat feet, because that's what we always hear about is flat feet, right?

Obviously, the government has a vested interest in improving dental health, because if we improve dental health, then we can improve our military, we can recruit more people to serve, right?

Oh, okay.

So the US Office of Education, the US Public Health Service and the American Dental Association all got together to try to improve dental health among high school students so that they would be fit to serve when they graduated.

During this time, there was also a shortage of dentists and dental school.

So if they could avoid people needing to go to a dentist, that's also a bonus, right?

And then on top of that, I touched on the financial benefits in the intro, right?

The ADA says $1 spent on fluoridating water, $50 saved long term.

So proponents of fluoridating water would say we were in the heyday of medical knowledge, we're heavy into studies to prolong lifespan, to minimize medical issues.

And that's all this was is like, this is one more way that we were trying to research how to make people healthier and kind of prolong life, right?

There were actually multiple dental leaders who said that in order to avoid dental caries, people needed to just avoid sugar and brush their teeth after every meal.

That's all you have to do.

But they said, we don't trust the public to do that.

We know they're not going to give up sugar.

We know they're not going to brush their teeth after every meal.

So this is like an appropriate alternative solution, which, I mean, I feel like that would be like, Americans need to lose weight.

So we're just gonna like, restrict the food they can buy, right?

Like, it feels like a control, like a weird government control.

Yeah, it does.

It does.

And there was like a-

Sprinkle some ozempic in there.

Well, there was a study in Japan that they like, added like, microdosed lithium in their water source.

In general, depression went down.

It's like, okay.

But like, this is not benign.

Lithium is not a benign medication.

No.

And if you're not someone who has depression, do you really want to be like, taking this in-

Oh my God.

In water stores.

So, did they know?

I think it was just like a study.

I don't know that like, they're actually, it's like, still in their water.

Oh, but still.

But the point is that these are just kind of like other, you could argue, putting fluoride in the water as like a medical treatment, how is that different from putting, yeah, who's dumping in your water or-

What is our informed consent?

Yes, exactly.

Bingo.

So, I don't know about the ethics with all this.

Anyway, so they have this research, it indicates to them that if we can just increase fluoride intake, then people have better dental health and so municipalities start looking into adding it into their water sources.

But again, we're fighting about this now, they were fighting about this 100 years ago.

So not every researcher was on board with this plan.

I mentioned in the intro again how in the early 1900s, there were separate researchers who were all looking into fluoride and dental health.

In 1942, Margaret Smith, who is a researcher in Arizona, her and her husband both studied this.

She was studying fluoride and rats and she actually published a critique that although mottled teeth might be initially resistant to decay, they quote are structurally weak and that unfortunately, when decay does set in, the result is often disastrous.

The range between toxic and nontoxic levels of fluorine ingestion is very small.

Any procedure for increasing fluorine consumption to the so-called upper limit of nontoxicity would be hazardous.

In 1944, the long-standing editor of the Journal of American Dental Association published an editorial stating that we did not yet know what the long-term ramifications of fluoridation were, and that the benefits of reducing dental decay in children were smaller than the risk of quote producing serious systemic disturbances.

So two months later, he published this.

He's in his journal, right?

Two months later, he issued a retraction saying that there was quote, abundant evidence that fluoride had reduced cavities and asserted that fluoridation study being planned for the state of New York was fully justified, but the dentist need to be aware of the potential health risks, and then he just retires abruptly.

So that's suspicious.

Yeah.

That's weird.

Again, my point is that there was a very vocal debate between people known as the fluoridationists and the anti-fluoridationists.

Like maskers and anti-maskers.

Yep.

Vaxers and anti-vaxxers.

Yeah.

So in March of 1944, authorities of a New York community reported that they would fluoridate the town's water supply.

Okay.

On the launch day, there was an influx of reports to health officials about discolored saucepans, digestive troubles, and cracked dentures.

But the local government had failed to launch the fluoridation in time.

So there had actually been no change to the water source.

So people, again-

It's like a placebo.

Yeah.

Why were they so paranoid?

Yeah.

I'm so happy you had.

Yeah.

Because before all of this, fluoride had been used as rat poisoning.

So everyone is like-

Like Coumadin.

So everyone's like, you're putting rat poison in our water?

Not quite.

The fluoride used in rat poison is a different compound and in much higher concentrations than the fluoride used for water fluoridation or in toothpaste.

The form of fluoride commonly used in rat poison is sodium fluoroacetate, often confused with sodium fluoride, which is what's used for dental health.

So again, this is not the same compound.

Not the same.

Again, you hit this, right?

We've talked in the past about another rat poison that is now used as medication, kubidin.

So pretty much anything can be toxic at high enough concentrations, I think, as well.

Like even water.

Your water can be toxic if over consumed.

Water intoxication.

Yeah.

So anyway, I just think that there was like a very...

You gave a speech on that.

I think you gave a speech on that.

In my public speaking class in college, I talked about water intoxication.

I think that there was just a very...

There was a lot of back and forth.

People are like, fluoride, that's used in rat poisoning.

So people are like, oh my god, we don't want fluoride in our water.

Oh my god.

I could see how people ran with that.

Yes.

And then they become paranoid.

And now they're like, oh my god, my dentures broke.

But it was all...

It was all just anxiety.

Anxiety.

Yep.

In 1945, Grand Rapids, Michigan became the first city in the world to adjust its drinking water to a fluoride concentration of one part per million.

Whoa.

First time that people are adding fluoride.

Because again, there are areas like Arizona, the southeast, where there is higher levels of fluoride in the water naturally.

Yep.

I don't know about North Carolina.

As communities began introducing fluoride into the water sources, they noted improved dental health compared to prior and to other communities that were not fluoridating.

Then in the 50s, there were a series of hearings regarding fluoridation.

In 1952, New York Congressman James J.

Delaney held a series of hearings concerning chemical additives in food and cosmetics.

Oh, I'm into this.

You're into this?

Yeah, this is I think the first time that people are really talking about what's in our makeup and that kind of thing.

Scientists both supporting and expressing caution about fluoridation testified with particular focus on potential side effects like mottled teeth.

Okay.

In 1954, hearings were held in Washington DC focusing on the fluoridation of water spurred by a proposed bill intended to protect the public health from the dangers of fluorination of water.

But again, we had these hearings were very divided.

We had people on both sides, pro and against.

And there was a lot of kind of disagreement about the true benefits.

Like, is this really beneficial and are there risks?

The other thing that's interesting is that the later hearings, like in the 1954 hearings, a lot of the people who had opposed fluoridation in 1952 were not invited to testify.

So, then that makes it suspicious.

Like, why is the government...

Yeah, why are they blocking them?

Yeah, people who are going to speak out against it.

Why are they not allowed to come speak?

I'm sorry.

That's not...

It sounds like also there are people who just kind of stepped out of the spotlight, maybe.

Right.

Like, took themselves out of the discussion.

But it just really feels very similar to the vibe today.

Like, we have these extremists on both sides.

And like, really, if people could just come together and do some research, and they could have done some research, and we could have had some facts.

But all we had were like pro-Floridation people who were doing all these studies that were, you know, biased to their perspective.

And then we had these anti-Floridationists who were doing all these studies that were biased to their perspective, but they never were just like, let's come together and have like a non-biased study and figure this out.

Come together.

So then, starting in 1962, the United States Public Health Service recommended that public water supplies contain fluoride to help prevent tooth decay.

Fluoride is now used in the public drinking water supply to three out of four Americans.

The decision to add fluoride drinking water is a local decision.

So this is not a federal law or anything.

It's decided at the state or local level.

So, oh, well, that's nice.

That's still power to the people.

So what are the thoughts against?

And this is kind of how we're to get into our conspiracy theories.

Okay.

Okay.

So obviously, when I've talked about these people who did it, who claim that they were doing it because they saw this improvement in dental health.

Okay.

Well, in the late 1950s, the American fluoridation experiment was published.

Okay.

In which authors argued that the fluoride experiment marked an unprecedented expansion of the powers of public health officials, mandating medication administration in communities with a medication that would only benefit a few.

Okay.

I mentioned that three quarters of our water sources in the US are fluoridated.

Right.

Only 5.4 percent of all water sources globally are fluoridated.

You know who doesn't fluoridate their water?

England.

Europe.

Yeah.

I think Ireland might, but most of Europe does not.

I believe that because their teeth are bad.

I know I was going to say, is that also like our, is that the point?

I mean, I'm like, I'm like, I don't know, they're usually kind of ahead on, I don't know if they're ahead on health.

I have the same.

Sometimes, you know, they're like more like, I mean, they've been regulating what's in their makeup for longer than we have.

I feel like they had a lot of the studies on like CRT and sepsis and ECMO, when that came from Europe and Australia.

But yeah, it is hard to say, hard to say like they know what's up here because they are famous for their dental.

I mean, yeah, but they're poor dentition.

Also, not, I don't think they all can afford like dental insurance.

I wonder if the NHS covers dental.

No.

Google that.

I don't think it does.

I said does NHS and it figured it out.

Yeah, because it heard you.

Yes.

NHS covers dental treatment, not cosmetic treatments, but regular dental treatment.

So, you know, but maybe they get dental treatment, but they don't get braces.

I said cosmetic.

Yeah.

So, right.

Braces or anyway, we don't our dental insurance doesn't cover.

My dental insurance covered Invisalign.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I think there was like a $500 deductible or something, and then it covered Invisalign.

So anyway, is the government medicating us without our consent with a substance that potentially could be dangerous?

Okay.

Okay.

So again, we have, you know, Kate said we have all these studies supporting it, right?

We do have all these studies.

I don't think I don't know if we do.

I've never looked.

We don't.

We don't.

So what we do know from a large meta analysis of 74 studies, again, January 2025, which meta analysis is like a systematic review.

It's the best.

It is the best.

But we're going to get into you say the best, except that the studies that were used within the analysis are not great.

But it was all the studies that exist.

So what this study found is that pregnant women and formula fed infants should avoid fluoridated water.

The systematic review revealed there does appear to be a trivial reduction IQ at age 3 to 4 in children of mothers who ingested increased fluoride.

Great.

We love this.

The famous York study reported a one milligram higher daily intake led to a 3.6 lower IQ score.

Studies also seem to report that the...

All they ever do when you're pregnant is tell you to drink water.

Well, Kait.

This is unfair.

Kait, do you know who is impacted most by this?

My children?

Boys.

Great.

He's real smart, though.

Yeah.

I think Patch is fine.

Yeah.

And there may be...

And so they're like, there may actually not be an observed difference in girls.

So again, we have all this conflicting data.

And I think too, they talk about this in like, really in the grand scheme of things.

Three points of your IQ, like an IQ variation of three points is really not that...

It's not that much.

But if you look at like, your, like the whole population, if we're shifting to the left, then that's more people who are going to need like, you know, assistance, social, you know what I mean?

So it's like, on an individual scale, it's like, meh, what's three points?

But again, there's a lot of conflicting data.

So the National Toxicology Program reviewed studies and concluded that there is, quote, moderate confidence in the association between higher fluoride exposure and lower IQ in children, primarily based on studies in areas with naturally high fluoride levels.

We do know that fluoride can cross the placenta.

We know that in animal studies, there may be structural and functional changes in the brain after fluoride exposure, which could affect learning and memory.

And we have not identified a benefit to fetuses yet with fluoride because really, fluoride is only helpful with dental hygiene after your teeth have come in.

Oh, yeah.

So, as far as reports of other health issues, we don't have consistent replicated findings either.

It is possible that there is an association with increased risk of bone fracture, bone cancer, and impaired thyroid function, but again, we have very inconsistent findings.

Also, why, Kait, do we have...

Why is, like, everyone have hypothyroidism now?

Oh.

You think it's diet?

The hippie...

Is it the iodine?

Like what?

You hippie girl, tell me.

Why do we all have low...

Like, not we, I don't...

The idea...

So this is...

I don't know what the research says, but like all of the hippie-dippie people and like, you know, the...

What is it?

What's the kind of functional medicine people that I like to follow in their podcasts and whatever.

They say it's all related to the environmental toxins that we are like putting on our bodies, like our makeup, our...

Like the candles you burn, the fragrances that you have in your house, the phyto...

Like, what is it?

The phytochemicals, the phytoestrogens in your body and all of those things are related to why we all...

Like, we have a bunch of hormone disruptors in our body.

That's why we all have thyroid problems.

I...

Like, my answer better.

Okay, what's your answer?

It probably is related to like...

I mean, I think it's probably related to our diets these days.

And I think it's lower...

Like, I think as a whole, are we eating less fish?

Are we consuming less iodine, which is causing lower thyroid because we're eating more processed foods?

That's what you think?

Yeah, well, that was my initial thought when I just had this.

As I was writing this, I was like, well, why does everyone have hypothyroidism?

And then I was like, oh, maybe that's what it is.

But no, I mean, there's actual studies that are like saying...

That are like breathing things that are making our thyroids work.

No, there's all these hormone disruptors in our, and like our lotions, our hair products, our like all these fragrances, all of these like your laundry detergent, your like all of these environmental toxins are like hormone disruptors that they look like specific hormones, and then they disrupt, and that's how we have like high thyroid issues and stuff like that.

Do your functional medicine people tell you why our allergies are so much worse now?

Because I've listened to podcasts on that, and I have not gotten a good answer.

Some people say that it's like, I don't know, it's like a whole, there's like a whole like, are you allergic to things, or are you just, do you have a like overabundance of histamine?

So like, what's causing it?

Is it like a histamine imbalance, or is it like a allergy?

I don't really, I've listened to a podcast about it, so I don't really, I can't really recall like the actual data, but this, there's like, you know, it goes back to gut health, and like how your body handles histamines, and can it get rid of the histamines, and do you have an overabundance of histamines, because your pathways to like detox your histamine, you don't have a good pathway to detox, so because you're like, it's like all that sort of, basically everything comes back to like, do your detox pathways work?

Are you pooping every day?

Are you, it's true, are you, is your gut health good?

Is your, it's like all this, like, are you, are you practicing good stress, like?

Yeah, so I guess I can see, like if you're having, if you have an, like yes, you're not clearing your histamine, you have high histamine, then I get you being like, okay, I feel stuffy, I feel congested, I feel whatever.

But there's like things that like, But I feel like that is separate from the fact that everyone's getting allergy tested and having crazy.

Are you talking about food allergies?

No, I'm talking about even just like, you know, I get my allergy test, and it's like the different types of grass, the different types of trees, the different dogs, different cats, and it's like, yep, this tree you're fine with, and this tree you went off the chart on.

So I feel like, But then I think the idea, the rebuttal to that is like, are you baseline, like have a histamine problem, and then something that you would like, not normally react so intensely to, are you reacting more intensely to because you are our baseline have a history histamine problem?

Okay, we digress.

Yeah, we digress.

But I definitely have listened to multiple podcasts that are like, why do we have all these allergies now and asthma too, right?

Which again, is going into what you're describing, I guess, because there's this subtype of asthma that is, so like, like I feel like, like the esophilic asthma, just yeah, what I have.

I also think there's just so much more, this also goes back to like, there's so many more chemicals that we're breathing in and there's exhaust.

But they're talking, but when you listen, when I listen to these podcasts are like these people, you know, in like, I mean, I guess you could be right, right?

But they're like, you know, these people who are like working in the factories back in the, like they didn't have these issues or these people who were, I don't know, I don't know.

I think it's all related to a different episode.

Yeah.

It's not a conspiracy theory.

So we'll probably never cover it.

But anyway, we digress.

Back to the fluoride.

Okay.

There's also an MK Ultra conspiracy theory.

Oh, I love an MK Ultra.

And I can't, yeah.

So do you know what else they use fluoride for?

Mind control.

Well, yes.

But to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

What?

And to make nerve gas, which we talked about in our Memorial Day episode.

In fact, the CIA studied acetic acid, which contains dinitrofluoride, which contains fluoride.

So we're talking like a derivative of a derivative, right?

A derivative?

Yeah.

So I feel like it's kind of a jump.

But the purpose when they studied this was a means of mind control.

So that's where this MK Ultra theory came from.

I'm not buying that one, but.

I don't know if I buy that.

They're all trying to mind control us.

I don't know if I buy that.

You do not agree with the guy in Dr Strangelove?

No.

Okay.

Did you know hydrofluorosilicic acid?

Okay.

So do I know what that is?

I'm going to tell you about it.

I don't know what that is.

It is a chemical commonly used to fluoridate water supplies.

Okay.

It is also a waste by-product of the fertilizer industry.

No.

So I mentioned the American fluoridation experiment earlier, which this vocal opposer of fluoridation in the 50s and 60s, Frederick Exner, he wrote it.

This poser.

Opposer.

Yeah, it sounded like a poser.

He argued that bureaucrats were interested in increasing their sphere of authority, while the aluminum and fertilizer companies who produced fluoride were eager to increase their profits.

So aluminum and fertilizer companies generate large amounts of fluoride-containing waste as a byproduct of their manufacturing processes.

So some of these conspiracy theorists believe that these industries, aluminum and...

They have some good lobbyists.

Yes.

Aluminum and fertilizer lobbied for fluoridation to avoid incurring costs for proper disposal.

Well, I could see that.

Instead, they could use public infrastructure as a cost-effective way to get rid of their waste.

So Alcoa, which was an aluminum company, actually sold sodium fluoride to cities for fluoridation from 1957 to 1968.

Do you know why they stopped selling their waste in the 60s?

Because it was bad for people.

No.

Because the fertilizer industry priced them out.

So since then, most of the fluoride added to water has come from the fertilizer industry.

No, I don't like that.

Yes.

So some people are like, we don't have good studies either way on this, right?

So was this all just a scam?

You know, follow the money.

I mean, I can believe it's a scam.

I can see this, how it's benefiting these big companies.

They're like, we'd have to spend all this money to get rid of our waste, but wait, now we can just sell it.

We can make money from our waste, sell it to the local governments.

Isn't this like what recycling was kind of like?

Well, that was more about them just lying to...

I don't know that they were profiting from it, but they were just like, we're going to make the American people think that they're that they're helping the environment, but they're not.

But really, we're the big petroleum companies.

And they're like, oh, I'm going to...

I prefer plastic over paper, please, because I want to help the environment.

But it's all a scam.

Right.

So then there's like this sub-theory.

So I do believe all of that, that there probably were lobbyists involved in all of this.

But separate theory off of that is that the aluminum industry is emitting hydrogen fluoride gas.

And so some people are like, well, I think this is toxic, but they don't want us to know it's toxic.

And so if they're telling us that like hydrogen fluoride is safe, like if fluoride is safe to ingest, then it must be safe to breathe in.

And so this is all like a way for the aluminum industry to get away with like emitting these toxic gases.

We just believe them?

Well, if they say it's okay, then it's okay?

Well, to debunk this theory, hydrogen fluoride is not the same chemical, it's a different compound than the fluoride that is used in water fluoridation.

And the emissions are heavily regulated.

So that kind of sub-conspiracy theory I think is debunked.

That's not for real.

But for sure, they are profiting off of their waste.

Oh, 100% they're profiting off of the waste.

And I don't know if I don't disagree that they have some good lobbyists.

Yeah.

So here's where I stand.

And then you tell me where you stand.

Okay.

Like, maybe there was a benefit back in the day when we weren't using fluoride toothpaste, right?

These are like, if you look at these very old studies, it was all before we really knew about the dental benefits of fluoride.

So people weren't using fluoride toothpaste.

They weren't using mouthwash like we are now.

Now we're all over our dental health.

We also know that those initial studies a century ago, I told you reported like 55 to 60% reduction in cavities.

Well, today the studies report a 15 to 35% reduction.

So even when looking at patients in non-fluoridated areas, we see like a similar decrease in the dental caries.

And so maybe it's more just like we are better informed.

Like we know that topical fluoride is helpful.

We know that.

The question, really the discussion is like, is ingesting fluoride helpful?

And so maybe now we're just using more topical fluoride and that's what it is.

And so do we really need this in our water source?

No, there's also other theories that maybe what's contributing to this decrease in dental caries is more antibiotic use in children.

You know, there weren't really even antibiotics when we started all of this, like now all the studies started.

So now kids are are having antibiotic exposure, which we know is not good for them.

We talked about all the time, but like maybe that's killing some of this bacteria in their mouth that is causing.

I just saw something today that like Alzheimer's is related.

Their thinking is related to.

Dental health.

Yeah.

I feel like I've heard that before.

Yeah.

You know, we don't like, we talked about this.

We talked about our Coca-Cola, right?

We don't love high fructose corn syrup.

No.

We are not supporters, but there are some studies that compared to sucrose, high fructose corn syrup is less cariogenic.

Okay.

So, maybe actually our transition to high fructose corn syrup has also contributed to a decrease in cavities.

And we just have better living conditions, better hygiene, right?

People didn't even need to shower.

So, anyway, in areas of high fluoride content, people are also using a lot of fluoride containing products.

Dentists are actually seeing those white spots that McKay reported.

There have been more recent comparisons.

So, for example, Vancouver, Canada has never fluoridated its water, but they saw no statistically significant variation in dental caries when compared to Toronto, who has been fluoridating for 30 years.

Whoa.

But then they'll argue, like in Juneau, Alaska, they stopped adding fluoride in 2007, and they have seen an increase in dental caries.

But also, I would say that, like, how much of this is socioeconomic?

Right.

And how much is the fluoride?

Is the actual fluoride.

So, looking at all of the research-

Hey, Megan.

Yeah.

Do you know what the capital of Alaska is?

Anchorage?

I don't know.

Do you know?

Is Juno the capital?

Yeah.

Juno.

Dad jokes.

Even when Colleen's not here, we still have dad jokes.

So, looking at all the research has been done.

Okay.

Okay.

There is no, you were talking about meta-analysis being the best of the best.

It is the best.

Systematic review the best.

It is the best.

It is the best.

Yeah.

But if we dig deeper on that and we look at what the studies are that were included in these systematic reviews that have happened.

Okay.

There is no level A evidence regarding dental health and fluoride.

Oh.

There's also no level A evidence regarding health ramifications from fluoride.

So we just have no research that is high-quality, causal, no blinded, no randomized controlled studies.

We have nothing to actually look at the benefit and the risk of fluoride.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

So I stand corrected.

I was going to just finish up with the recommendations right now for fluoride.

But what do you think now, Kait?

Have I changed your perspective at all?

You were already sort of anti-fluoride, but you weren't sure why.

Yeah.

Not that, I mean, I drink water from a faucet, so.

Your favorite type of water.

Yeah.

I think there needs to be more research.

I think we do need more research.

I think we don't need to be fluoridating water.

I guess the issue becomes like maybe some of these like third world countries need their water fluoridated, but I guess how do you pick and choose?

You can't really be like, oh, in areas of our country where we have like a lower socioeconomic, we're going to fluoridate there.

I mean, but not elsewhere.

No, because then it's going to turn into like the Tuskegee.

It's going to turn like, yeah, like Tuskegee or like the, you know, how we used to experiment on prisoners and military.

And we're like, that's not fair.

You can't really be like, that's just going to make everyone more suspicious.

You're like, we're only going to fluoridate water in these areas, low income areas.

That's I don't know.

It just seems like maybe there was one of it back in the day.

Now we know if you just brush your teeth with some fluoride, you're going to probably get the same benefit and you're not going to get the systemic risks that may or may not exist.

We don't know.

Because everyone's been too busy bickering.

Which again, this is just a reflection of our world today.

We have these extremists on both sides.

They've been bickering for a century.

And these brilliant minds could have just gotten together and done some high quality studies.

And maybe we'd have some answers.

But instead they both just were like, I'm going to die on this hill and we're still feuding today.

Yep.

Do you think it was like all a big government conspiracy?

No.

I truly, I truly think it was like in the name of public health and how can we help with the cavities?

Yes.

Yeah.

What I want to know is like, do we have less heart problems because of fluoride in the water?

Because less teeth decay?

But I think also you could be saying in over the last 100 years, we should be having less heart problems because we had other advancements in health care.

Right.

Yeah.

Are our endocarditis rates, are we having lower rates of infection?

I don't know.

I think it's not a big government conspiracy.

I mean, there may or may not have been some lobbying to help push this.

Yeah.

I mean, the way that they picked and chose who testified, which feels very much like the assassination hearings for JFK.

Right.

It was like, if you're not following the party line, we don't want you to testify.

Right.

That's suspicious.

But I think that's just sketchy politics.

It does get into the bigger debate, which again, we're not over our heads, right, of this, like, kind of when you go into, like, the discussion about, like, vaccination.

Although I would argue that, like, when you talk about vaccines, that, your choice to vaccinate or not is impacting other people's health.

Right.

It impacts herd immunity.

Yes.

But, like, this does not...

Fluoride?

No.

This is not impacting other people.

Right.

It just impacts yourself.

It's just like we are medicating people, and you can't even really opt out, I guess, unless you get your...

Berkey water filter.

Yeah.

You can't really opt out, and it's not...

But, like, you maybe should have the option to opt out because that's not impacting someone else's dental health.

Right.

So, I don't know.

A discussion to continue, I guess.

People will probably still be fighting about it in...

54 years.

Yep.

There you go.

50 years.

Will I be declassified?

Yep.

So, just to wrap this up, the official recommendations that exist right now, because I did reference this recent study, and I said that maybe the takeaway from that recent study is people who should avoid fluoride or maybe infants and pregnant women, but no one has changed their actual recommendation yet.

So, the American Cancer Society's stance is that we have no clear association between cancer and fluoride.

Now, they did post on their website that...

So, the presumed risk of cancer with this is osteosarcoma, right?

That like you're getting too much fluoride, it's causing your bones to become more brittle, and maybe there's initially a benefit, but then they'll become more brittle.

And could you get osteosarcoma?

And they're like, well, we don't see an association, but they do note that there's only about 500 cases a year of osteosarcoma in the United States.

So, it's really hard to prove a statistical significance when you have such a small number.

But they're saying, as of now, we have no clear association between cancer and fluoride.

The World Health Organization recommends less than 1.5 milligrams per liter of fluoride in your water.

CDC recommends less than 0.7, and this is really about where most municipalities in the United States maintain it, like 0.7, 0.8.

CDC recommends no fluoride toothpaste under two years, and then between the age of 2 and 6, you should give no more than a pea-sized amount and try to encourage them not to swallow.

And then the American Dental Association and the American College of OBGYN still recommend fluoride water and brushing twice daily for pregnant women.

So whether or not you trust these groups, those are the official recommendations.

The conspiracies, they trust the groups.

Do we trust them?

Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to do like an FDA one for us.

I think that would be up your alley.

Add it to the list.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

All right.

Well, then.

I don't think so.

But that was very interesting, Megan.

Thank you.

I just went on a little deep dive.

Yeah.

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Kait, what should the people do?

Yeah, what I want you to do is, I want you to pull out your phone right now.

I want you to text three people in your life that you know love water, and or are pregnant, and or formula feeding.

Send them this episode.

I don't know, are pregnant women or mothers of newborns, don't they have enough anxiety in their plate without listening to a podcast that's like, you may or may not make your kid three points dumber?

I mean, listen, if I were in that stage of life, I'd be like, okay, I guess I got to do it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Also, don't take Benadryl, guys.

Yeah, don't take Benadryl.

But anyway, reach out to the people and what?

Oh, and send them the podcast, send them this episode, and then you should scroll on down, leave us a five-star review, leave us a comment, share us on your Instagram and your social media platforms, interact with us on Reddit, and yeah.

Yeah.

We will see you next Tuesday.

Yeah.

We'll see you next Tuesday.

Bye.

Bye.