Ouija: Who is Really in Control?

**Discussion begins at 4:30**

Early advertisements for the Ouija Board promised to answer questions “about the past, present and future with marvelous accuracy” and to provide a link “between the known and unknown, the material and immaterial.” This board, initially made of wood and sold for $1.50, was also referred to as a spirit or talking board. The flat board marked with letters, numbers, and other symbols, is typically used in séances and paranormal activities to communicate with spirits. Participants place their fingers on a planchette, a small heart-shaped pointer, which is believed to move around the board to spell out messages. The board has a mystique associated with it, often seen as a tool for divination or contact with the supernatural, though many consider its movements to be a result of the ideomotor effect—unconscious muscle movements by participants. So which is it? Are young girls at sleep overs just tricking themselves into thinking they are communicating with the dead? Or are Ouija boards really a tool for demonic possession as many mainstream religious groups allege?

Transcript

Hey, guys.

Welcome to the podcast, Halloween version.

Today we have a repeat guest.

The one, the only, Mermaid Girl.

Welcome back, Mermaid Girl.

Hello.

Hello, Mermaid Girl.

So happy to have you.

What's flippin?

Oh, we're just gonna get spooky over here.

Spooky, spooky, spooky.

She showed up in her mermaid socks, and then we were like, so, BTW, we have to record an episode, and you're gonna be our guest.

So she's goin into this blind...

A girl's craft day, and that's what Jamie, our mermaid girl, thought she was coming to do.

Little does she know, now she's stuck recording with us.

Yeah, it's fine.

I learned the topic 30 seconds ago.

Yeah.

And she did do like her senior thesis on hauntings, right?

Ooh, you did it.

I was, yes, I was a ghost hunter for my senior project.

I knew this.

In high school.

Yeah, I knew this.

Oh yeah, we did.

She like almost died.

We've got a spooky episode ahead.

We do, cause it's Halloween this week, guys.

Yeah, happy Halloween, which I wanna say, earlier Megan was telling me for the 750th time about her mom making her own Halloween costume and trying to shame me, because I don't make my kids Halloween costumes.

Okay, that was not me shaming you.

That was me saying that I have very fond memories of my mom making costumes.

And you take these pictures and you look back and it's like, man, she really made a lot of time in that.

The homemade ones are always fun.

But now I'll be like, are you gonna make your grandkids their costumes?

And she's like, I mean, we could just buy it for $15.

Yeah.

I mean, there's no shame.

It's just, you know, memories.

It's your core memories.

I always did a little bit of both.

We bought some some year and then we crafted some of the others.

OK, well, my kids are going to have no core memories of me making Halloween costumes, but they will have core memories of me making a Halloween snacks.

Yeah, which your snacks were really good.

Yeah.

But also, yes, your kids will grow up to remember the snacks because they like their snacks.

They love their snacks.

They love.

Yeah, we did.

Kait did do a cute day for her kids with all festive food and so fun.

Hocus pocus.

I will say Halloween is not my favorite holiday.

Oh, I love Halloween.

I know.

Mermaid Girl, are you a Halloween girl?

No, I like Christmas more.

Oh, yes, I love Christmas.

I'm a Christmas gal.

I'm not a Halloween girl.

I just I like the fall.

I like I'm a holiday girl.

Well, I just love holidays.

I just thought you were a Halloween girl because I feel like you always have really good costumes, Megan.

Like you always go out out.

So is it time for our drink check?

Drink check.

We're sipping on a seasonal drink that Megan made us.

Yeah.

Yeah, can you explain?

Well, so it was supposed to be a pumpkin white Russian.

Right.

But then it wasn't it wasn't amazing.

It wasn't giving enough.

And and then we realized that we still have two more sets from the kit that Jamie gave me of espresso martini.

So we're now having a pumpkin spiced espresso martini.

And it definitely tasted better when you mixed the white Russian recipe with espresso martini.

It's in the white Russian recipe.

Cream.

It was like a little bit of vodka, a little bit of Baileys, and then some pumpkin cream, pumpkin creamer.

That is what a white Russian is.

White Russian is just cream and liquor.

Yeah.

So should we get into it?

Yeah.

So this was a Kait idea for our holiday.

Kait idea girl over here.

Yeah.

You know, I'm not sure if it's real.

I think maybe how Ouija boards came to be is a little bit of conspiratorial, but definitely more of a spooky mystery, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think some people think that, like any type of conspiracy, some people think Ouija boards actually do invade the-

The spirits.

The spirit world to your home or whatever.

And other people are like, no, that doesn't exist.

Okay, so 1891, advertisements for the Ouija Board promised to answer questions about the past, present and future with marvelous accuracy, and to provide a link between the known and unknown, the material and immaterial.

This board, initially made of wood and sold for $1.50, was also referred to as a spirit or talky board.

The flat board, marked with letters, numbers and other symbols is typically used in sciences and paranormal activities to communicate with spirits.

Participants place the fingers on a planchette, a small heart shaped pointer, which is believed to move around the board to spell out messages.

The board has a mystique associated with it, often seen as a tool for contact with the supernatural, though many consider its movements to be a result of the ideomotor effect, which is unconscious muscle movements by participants.

So which is it?

Are young girls at sleepovers just tricking themselves into thinking they're communicating with the dead?

Or are Ouija boards really a tool for demonic possession, as many mainstream religious groups allege?

I'm definitely in the realm of The Spirit World Exists.

I am too, but do I believe you can contact The Spirit World with a board?

No.

What do you think?

Maybe.

Hold on.

I don't know, I go back and forth.

I don't, I think it's potentially possible, but rare.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree with that take.

I don't think it always, I think sometimes you've got a person who's moving the board, and then sometimes you are like inviting in an evil spirit.

Well, I can't wait to tell you some of the evidence out there.

Okay.

And what do you, wait, Megan, what do you think?

Well, I did the research.

I know, but before.

Before you got, before.

No, I don't know that I...

I knew you didn't believe it.

Megan didn't believe it.

She's not a believer.

Well, here's what I think too.

I think that like my aunt claims that she has all of these, she's a fan of the show, she's probably listening.

Shout out Cathy.

Yeah.

Hi, Cathy.

She claims to have all of these encounters, like whenever anyone passes in the family, she always has like some kind of encounter with them.

And we've discussed this and the theory is you have to probably be open to it.

I guess we're trying to get out with this.

Like I know right now I'm not open to it.

I don't ever want to experience a spirit or a ghost.

So I'm very closed off and I'm sure it would not work for me.

Okay.

Well, you know what I believe in though?

I might not believe in Ouija boards, but do you know the lady who taught like the Long Island?

Yes, Teresa Cote.

Yeah, I believe in her.

The Long Island medium?

Yeah.

What do you think of mediums?

Okay.

I do believe in the spiritual world.

Yeah, like I 100% believe in the spiritual world.

I think that there are angels, there's demons.

That's all because I believe that the Bible is true.

Right.

So there are angels and demons in the Bible and there's different.

They're like evil spirits.

And I do believe in all of that, which is why like there's an idea.

They're like, do we do in Ouija board?

Like while we I'm like, no, I'm not inviting that sort of evil.

No, because anything can come through.

Right.

Anything.

So that's that's sort of like my take on it.

Have I done the Ouija board as a child?

Yes.

I did it with my neighbors and I never did it again.

It freaked me out.

Do you know what's interesting?

Catholicism has only really become anti Ouija boards in the last couple of decades.

Interesting.

They used to be, I'm going to tell you about it.

They used to be like very pro pro pro like talking boards thing.

Oh, I was going to say that was going back to inviting.

I really wanted to have a spiritual encounter with Rooney after she died.

Oh, but she never came.

We never came.

So in my mind, I just think that maybe she's happily moved on.

Yeah.

Rooney's the dog.

Yeah.

I always believe there are signs.

Yeah.

Like when my grampy passed away, we just the the house that he used to lived in where my aunt and uncle live, they started seeing this really big blue heron.

Yes.

Like randomly, there was never a heron before.

And then suddenly it just started popping up.

And then when we went to spread its ashes, the house we stayed at, we didn't even know this, but the house, the Airbnb was titled Blue Heron House.

And he was blue herons, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So or he liked birds, but we were just like, Oh my God.

My friend, Emily had an encounter.

I believe it was a bird after her grandmother passed and she was convinced it was a sign.

My mom is like me and is like, again, not open to the spirit.

Yeah, not birds.

The spirits aren't real.

But just tell a story about being in high school and being with my aunt and their friend in the car and where they weren't supposed to be in the dark woods of Washington state.

And a voice from behind them spoke to them that they were a long way from where they were supposed to be.

Yeah, that's so crazy.

Every time I hear that, when my mom tells a story, it gives me chills.

Yeah.

And you're not open, so you should be like me.

Just live in your life, your head down.

And then just spirit world in general, whenever people are near death, like the things that can happen or like the way they're they persevere until like a certain family member comes to see them, like it's crazy to me.

Oh, yeah.

There's more to it.

But Ouija Boards.

Jamie, have you had a Ouija experience?

Not very interesting one.

I've done one when I was doing my ghost hunting project, but it didn't really do anything.

It was, but it was creepy.

And but the reason that we did it in the place that we did it was because my ghost hunting mentor had done it previously and they had like a really crazy encounter with it.

And the board was moving without them really touching it.

What was the location that you did this in?

Trying to remember.

It was somewhere in Asheville.

There's like a haunted, it's, I think it's like a bar club, but also maybe like an inn or something.

Okay.

Okay.

Not in the cemetery, right?

No, I've been to several of those as well though, but.

But not doing a Ouija Board?

No.

Because there are like 13 rules to follow.

I'll tell you guys at the end if you are going to use a Ouija Board.

And one of them is, do not do it in a cemetery.

Oh, no.

There's too many spirits.

So where did the Ouija Board come from?

Well, the idea of using planchettes to communicate with the spirit world really goes back to China around 1100 AD.

The Ouija Board, as we know, it is actually a relatively local story that takes place in Maryland.

So Charles Kennard was the son of a successful Delaware merchant, and he initially moved to Maryland's eastern shore in the late 19th century.

So what year would that be, Kait?

1800s.

Bingo.

OK, so Charles Kennard made fertilizer, and he had a plant in Chestertown, Maryland that was initially very successful, but was then foreclosed on due to drought and competition.

But fortunately for him, he had an office mate, a Prussian immigrant named EC.

Reiche.

That's what YouTube said is how it's pronounced.

He got his start making furniture, but then he got into the coffin making business.

And I suppose he fell so in love with it that he became an undertaker.

So it's quite a coffin making.

Yeah.

Well, furniture making maker to coffin maker.

Maybe he liked to undertake the way you have to like round it.

And I'm sure there's an art.

But then how do you become an undertaker?

He was obsessed with death after the coffins, I'm sure.

You want to know a fun fact?

Yeah.

The mattresses used in coffins, like the main company that makes those mattresses is now a huge hospital mattress making company.

Really?

Yeah.

I didn't realize there were mattresses and coffins.

The hospital bed is uncomfortable because it's made for dead people.

So as you recall, at this point, they're kind of fresh off the Civil War.

So there's a lot of kind of traumatic death.

There was sort of a spiritualist movement where people were attempting to reach out to their deceased loved ones.

Life expectancy was less than 50 years, so there's a lot of death at that time.

And Mary Todd Lincoln used to even hold seances in the White House after her son died.

Whoa.

Some of the spiritualist camps in Ohio used talking boards to communicate with spirits.

So Kennard and his partner read several newspaper articles about people who were using these talking boards to communicate with the dead.

Okay, to communicate with the dead.

So they decided they should collaborate and create their own talking boards.

So to be clear, it sounds like the coffin maker was really like the brains behind this whole business.

And Kennard is really just like the snake salesman.

So he leaves Chester Town for Baltimore in 1890, and he's searching for investors for this talking board that he claims that he made.

So enter Elijah Bond, a local attorney, the three of them and two other businessmen.

So and actually none of these people were spiritualists.

None of these people believed in like talking to spirits.

They're just businessmen.

Just business.

So they start working on the production of this talking board, and they develop a board that's very similar to what we see now except this board and planchette were made of wood instead of today's cardboard and plastic.

So Elijah Bond, who is the local attorney that kind of joined the group, his sister-in-law was a medium.

Her name was Helen Peters, and she is responsible for naming the board and assisting in getting the patent approved.

Yeah, where did Ouija come from?

Oh, I'm so happy you asked.

Some of the rumors are that it's a combination of the French word we and the German word ja.

Both meaning yes.

But the story of the descendants of these creators have told, based on like letters that they found, is that Helen Peters asked the board what they should call it, and the name Ouija came through.

Whoa, like spiritually?

Yes.

And then they said, asked the board, what does Ouija mean?

And the board spelled good luck.

Kind of creepy, right?

But also, Peters admitted that she was wearing a lock at that day with a picture of a woman and the word Ouija on it.

And apparently, this woman was a woman's right activist that Peters admired, named Weeda, like O-U-I-D-A.

Oh, yeah.

So she may have just been inspired and like misinterpreted the spelling, but either way, she is the one who came up with Ouija, whether it came to her on the board or...

Inspiration.

Yeah.

So now they've got a name and they need to prove the board works in order to get a patent.

And so this is also kind of a crazy story because, yeah, if it didn't function, they're not going to get a patent for it.

So how were they able to convince the patent office?

Right.

It worked.

So Bond and Peters go to DC and the chief patent officer who had not shared his name told them that if the board could spell his name, then they would get the patent.

And the board did.

Oh my God.

Whose hands were on the heart thing?

Yeah.

Was someone actually like, did they lay their fingers on it or didn't?

That's what I know.

I know you don't have those details, but like I'm interested.

Like, I wonder if they were really desperate for it.

Well, well, and I'm going to also tell you how how people can, how people are inadvertently moving it.

But also, my thought about this is that Bond was a patent attorney.

So maybe he just like already knew this guy's name.

And they're like, oh, he didn't know his name, but also like you work in patents and this is like the chief patent officer.

Yeah.

So then, so this February 18th, 1891, they get their patent, they go on to become the Kenner Novelty Company incorporated on October 30th, 1891, the day before Halloween.

So close to Halloween.

Yeah.

Over the next year, they expanded from a single factory in Baltimore to seven different factories in three states and two countries.

They made a ton of money and for whatever reason, Kenner and Bond left the company.

Sounds like there was a lot of drama.

There was like initially five investors.

And then they all just start bickering over like who actually created the Ouija Board.

And they all start leaving the company and then like then the company really takes off.

So then people are mad that they like failed too early.

Okay.

But William Fold was one of the early employees and stockholders.

And he ended up taking over the company.

So in 1898, they actually begin producing the Ouija Board.

I told you about the, there was very public squabbling about who the creator was.

There were lots of lawsuits.

Fold's brother, who was also an employee, got so mad at him that he, like he leaves, the Ouija Board takes off.

And then Fold's brother actually exumes his deceased daughter from the family plot.

And the family goes on to have a 96-year divide within the Fold family all over the Ouija Board.

96 years.

Yes, their ancestors, their descendants just buried the hatchet.

Buried the board, if you will.

But there you go.

So all these people who were leaving the company, they all tried to launch their own versions of the board, but none of them were as successful as that initial Ouija Board.

Eventually, all of this drama led the final original investor to shell his share to Fold for $1 in 1919.

Okay, guys.

Yeah.

Guess what happens to Fold?

Oh my God, he dies.

He dies.

Yes.

It's a very creepy story.

Oh.

1927, he has a freak fall from the roof of his new factory.

Oh, the spirit pushed him.

Well, he said that the Ouija Board...

He said he's dead.

Well, he had alleged before his death that the Ouija Board told him he needed to build another factory.

So, he's building this factory at the direction of the Ouija Board.

And while he's hanging a flag, one of the railings gives way and he falls to his death.

Wow.

Oh, my God.

What?

Sounds like an evil spirit told him to do that, Megan.

Yeah.

Maybe he didn't say goodbye after his...

Oh, you're supposed to say goodbye?

You have to close or any spirit can come through.

Yeah.

Oh.

So the Cornish Report said that a broken rib had pierced his heart.

Oh, wow.

And on his deathbed, he made his children promise to never sell the Ouija out of the family.

Whoa.

But they do.

Oh, okay.

I mean, they held on to it for a long time and it was a pretty...

Again, it remained very successful, especially in all of the dark times that we had.

So think like World War I, Prohibition, the Great Depression, Vietnam, the race riots, like sales were...

Popping.

Yes.

And they had to actually open new factories during the Depression to meet the demands, which, you know, incredibly rare.

And then in 1967, Parker Brothers bought the game from the Fold Company and relocated manufacturing to their headquarters in...

Salem?

Salem, Massachusetts.

Whoa!

That's pretty cool.

Cool.

And that first year, they sold 2 million boards, which was more than even Monopoly, and no other game has ever outsold Monopoly.

This isn't a game.

Yeah, it's not a game.

This is life or death.

I mean, this is real.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

There's no way to win a Ouija Board.

No.

No.

Well, no.

So does it work?

So that's what we'll talk about now, right?

So most people believe the way it works is the ideomotor effect, which I mentioned earlier.

And this is the influence of the unconscious mind on muscle movements.

So if you think about things like, like we're yawning or whatever, right?

Yeah.

Like we're not intentionally doing those things.

Or breathing.

Or moving our digested material through our intestines.

Thank you for that image.

Yeah.

Or like if you hold your arm out in front of you and you hold like a string with a ring on the end, right?

And you just stare at it, it's not going to stay perfectly still because even though you're trying not to move, there's going to be a little bit of movement, right?

Yeah.

Is that a whole other like game that people play?

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Or babies.

Babies?

No, there's like it's a crystal on the end of a chain.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a door in Asheville that would sell them, and me and my friends would always go play with it.

And so you say, show me yes, and it'll swing like back and forth, and you'll say, show me no, and then it does a circle.

Oh, and you ask your questions.

I feel like that, but there's also a thing.

There's also like an old wives tale that if you put a string and tie your wedding ring around it and put it over your belly, if it swings back and forth, it's like a girl.

Yeah, it's one of them.

It's either girl or boy.

If it seems a circle, it's another.

So some other old wives now.

But if you're not married, then you can do it.

What if you have a pregnant?

Oh, you can't be pregnant if you're not married.

You're pregnant.

I've never thought about that, Megan.

OK.

It just seems a little exclusionary.

OK.

Ah, well, that's why it's called an old wives tale.

Whoa.

OK.

So then there was a study when there was a bunch of college professors and they studied some of their graduate students and the study participants were asked to answer or guess a set of challenging questions, and they were correct about 50% of the time.

But then when they responded while using the board, which participants believed had the ability to receive correct answers from another person, and they used it as a robot as their Ouija partner, and they scored correctly 65% of the time.

And the robot was really a ruse.

It was not responding.

It wasn't doing anything, but it just like subtly amplified the study participants' tiny unconscious movements.

It was significant how much better they did on these questions.

This is what the researcher said.

If you don't think so, consider the difference playing roulette with the odds 50-50 versus 65-35.

The implication is that one's unconscious is much smarter than anyone knew, capable of pulling up bits of stored information not accessible to the conscious mind.

Results and follow-up studies replicated the findings, which they reported in the academic journal, Consciousness and Cognition.

So they kind of just verified this belief that people have had about this idiomotor effect.

I don't know, I wonder if it's like, you know when you get called on and you're like, not really positive about the answer.

Like, maybe that's why you're 50-50.

And then, but like, you sort of have an idea, but you're like, don't want to say it.

Is this just me?

You don't want to embarrass yourself?

And so maybe that's why you were unconsciously moving.

Are they saying that that study just proves that it's not spirits, it's your own mind?

That's what they were trying to prove?

Yes, they were trying to prove that the participants, that the people who were playing with the Ouija Board were unconsciously moving, that there was not spirit involvement.

OK.

OK.

OK.

Yeah.

This is just.

Naysayers.

All right.

So then, yeah, these are haters.

I got a couple more studies.

Science is always trying to disprove people who just have a different belief in them.

Yeah.

That's I don't.

You're going to believe what you believe in.

Who cares about the science?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We all know that I love.

Yes.

My science.

You love a logical reason for things.

I do.

Yeah.

So then I guess there was a show Brain Games, which I linked to on the website, and they blindfolded people.

And then they had them play and they would actually move to where they thought the answer should be, not where it actually was.

So you ask a question and it goes almost to yes, but it doesn't actually like stop on yes, because they are blindfolded.

So they, it's like without seeing the board, it wasn't, it doesn't stop at the correct answer, right?

Oh, I see.

It stops near the correct answer, like where they blindfoldedly think that the answer might be.

Yeah.

Now people could say that just because it was fake once doesn't mean it's always fake.

Or some people will say the spirits are mad that you were testing them as they try to sabotage us.

Or maybe the spirits need your eyes to see.

Well, that really creeps me out.

They just like go into you.

It's like the host.

Do you ever read that book?

Oh, I did read the host.

Yeah.

Stephanie Meyer also wrote Twilight.

Okay.

Penn and Teller took it a step further and they turned a board backwards with blindfolded participants.

And so again, the messages weren't coming through.

The planchette was moving to again where the participants thought the correct answer should be, but there was no correct answer.

It was flipped around and they were blindfolded.

So again, I think those are going to perform under testing.

Yeah.

No, right.

They definitely want obviously not.

Yeah.

They're like, this isn't no, no.

Okay.

And then there was one more study in 2018 where they actually had the camera set up and they tracked participants eye movements.

So they would ask them to spell the word Baltimore.

And obviously, as they're spelling the word, their eyes are like going to the letters before their hands move there.

When they had them play regularly, one of the two participants' eyes always looked ahead.

So again, not that I knew was intentionally faking it, but somebody probably had a thought about what the answer should be.

And so one of the two people, because you're really only supposed to play with two people.

You're never supposed to play alone.

Correct.

But I feel like we definitely had like six of us around a Ouija Board.

Oh, for sure.

And that's not right.

So you're supposed to really have two players.

And so one or the other of them always had their eyes moving before, before the plant shed.

So again, were they just trying to anticipate the next letter and it involuntarily moved the plant shed?

So I don't know.

What do you guys think?

It does seem very clearly that there's a lot of proof that there's no spiritual involvement.

Proof, proof, if you will.

Yeah.

But at the same time, I understand what Kait's saying, where it's like, I don't think spirits come when you want them to.

Always?

I don't think.

Always the peacekeeper with the diplomatic answer where everyone's right.

I'm like, and I also feel like some people are more spiritually inclined than others.

So you're going to see what you want to see.

And you're going to experience what you want to experience.

It's all about perception of your world.

Yeah.

What do you think, Jamie?

I don't know.

I think a lot of the time, people are kind of moving it themselves and not necessarily spirits.

But I do believe in other spirit encounters that are possible.

Well, interesting.

You should say that because I do have a couple of creepy stories.

Yeah, there's definitely a ton of creepy stories that come with.

I wouldn't say ton.

There's a ton.

OK, well, here's what I found.

OK, on Reddit.

No, no, I have no.

I have like five.

Oh, no, you can go on Reddit and people can upload all their personal stories.

Yeah.

OK, these are like actual documented, validated.

I mean, not validated.

Like, well, you'll see.

OK, so 1921, a woman in a Chicago psychiatric facility said she wasn't suffering from mania, but that Ouija spirits had told her to leave her mother's dead body in the living room for 15 days before burying her in the backyard.

That's well, does she blame the Ouija Board?

Probably.

Mania.

No, that's probably not in the right.

She actually did.

Was anything else weird about her?

That's a good question.

Well, I feel like if a Ouija board told you, well, she's in a psychiatric facility like the Ouija board can tell you whatever.

But that doesn't mean you do it.

No, that's true.

You should same person would be like, I'm not doing that.

Right.

Or did she really have issues with her mom?

And she subconsciously the Ouija board told her to handle it.

You know, either that or just the spirit did contact her.

And first of all, did she play it by herself?

That's dangerous unless you count the dead mom, right?

Of being the other person in the room.

Second of all, maybe the spirit was like trying to play some games with her.

I knew that if she listened, she'd end up in a psychiatric ward.

He was not being a nice guy.

Punishing her for whatever reason.

Yeah.

Poltergeist, if you will.

Then in 1930, two women killed another woman after they said the Ouija Board told them to do it.

These also sound like mentally ill people.

Yeah.

Maybe they should not have been playing.

Yeah.

I'm not saying it.

Also, why did the Ouija Board tell her to kill them?

Like, what was that movement to them?

I would say it could be like the Slender Man where it's just a couple of bullies, and they're like, we don't like this girl, and subconsciously offer, you know?

I mean, they've got to be wrong in the head if that's what their subconscious is telling them to do.

But it's interesting.

Because it can't be a spirit that's telling them to do it.

Well, interesting that you mentioned the Poltergeist because I had told you earlier that really this, like, don't mess with the Ouija boards as like a mainstream religious Christian, specifically Catholicism, that says that.

That's all relatively new because for the most part, people were using Ouija boards to celebrate the dead, right?

And it wasn't a scary thing.

It wasn't like evil spirits were coming in.

It was like, yeah, half of our siblings passed because it was tough times, and we just want to be able to talk to them.

But then the Exorcist came out.

Oh, I love that movie.

The main character in the Exorcist says that she summoned her demon with a Ouija board.

So they say that the Exorcist did for the Ouija board what Psycho did to the shower.

Like no one ever had fear of being in a shower until Psycho came out.

So no one ever feared a Ouija board until Exorcist came out.

Okay.

Legit Christianity was 100% buying Ouija boards until the 2000s, when they started announcing them and saying that the demons could reach us through the boards and so we shouldn't use.

What does she say in the Exorcist?

We shouldn't use them.

She's like, well, she vomit's pea soup.

She like says, there's some very graphic stuff, doesn't she?

I love that movie.

Salt herself with the cross.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I haven't seen it.

You haven't seen it.

You know where it was filmed.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Jamie's a believer.

You guys know?

Jamie believes in the spirit world.

Have I never told you guys?

I would never watch the Exorcist.

Have I never told you guys about the Exorcist room in Catholic University that I've been to?

So there's a room in one of the older buildings at Catholic.

It's one of the first buildings that has been blocked off and is guarded by police.

There's like a locked staircase you can take that's occasionally unlocked and you can sneak in if you can bypass the priest guards.

And you go and it's like in the attic of this building, and it's literally a random bedroom with a random bed in it and like crosses all over the wall.

And allegedly, that's where one of the most popular documented exorcists in America happened.

Well, the exorcism, you were there.

It's really disturbing.

I mean, the exorcism-

And we got chased out by a priest.

But yeah, the room is really disturbing.

It's locked in.

It looks like an exorcist.

No, because I'm sure it's from the exorcism.

Yeah, look it up.

The true story.

So the truth, because a true story of the exorcist takes place in DC.

That's why it was filled.

We've all seen the stairs, right?

If it's correlated to the one I'm talking about.

Do Catholic.

Yeah, Catholic.

It's really disturbing.

And we, of course, went at night.

Of course, you did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I would I wouldn't watch the movie, but I would go to the real place.

I have done this.

Yes, I've done.

Yeah.

Who hasn't gone to the exorcism stairs yet in that building?

Well, I don't know if I've been there, but I've been to like other haunted places.

Oh, it's when I was younger.

Megan, I think you do a really good job at facts, but you're not a fact person.

Well, I just think not everything is black and white.

Yeah.

And I don't think you can explain away everything.

And there are like stories out there about the Ouija Board that just like freak me out.

Yeah, they're too real.

Like, I don't think I would ever do like name a story.

OK, like I just read about a story about a girl who did the Ouija Board in college, and she did it with her mom.

And she was like, Oh, I didn't know any people who had died.

But you know what?

There was a there was a picture of like my great aunt on the wall.

And so we summoned my great aunt.

And she was like, So that happened.

I went to bed and didn't think anything of it.

Then woke up in the middle of the night.

And there was a woman standing at the foot of her bed.

No.

And she's and she woke up her roommate.

And then she said, I think she was in college or something.

She woke up her roommate and was like, Who's that?

And her roommate was like, Oh, heck no.

Yeah, no.

And then she had like a couple other like instances where she felt like someone like laid down in the bed with her, but like never touched her.

So there's that.

There's there's one that I've read of.

This isn't like this isn't too creepy.

This is like so a dad had remarried and he had three daughters with his first wife.

The dad died.

The three sisters were like not left anything in the will.

Per the like evil, evil step mom, you know.

And sounds like a Disney fairy tale.

They did a Ouija Board and told and asked her dad, like some of the dad to come and say like, Hey, dad, did you leave us anything?

And the Ouija Board spelled out a bank letter with a number and they went to the bank and lo and behold, it was his and it was for them.

Yeah.

Whoa.

So like things I where did you where did you read these?

Read it.

Read it.

Well, that is all the fun.

You know, you, but you this is not a few stories for a person.

I always preface with like this was a Reddit story that I then researched.

OK, but you're saying that that's not nobody's sounds like somebody's reality is not real.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know this person.

My thing is, are they just stirring drama up on Reddit?

When people die, they die.

You're not meant to stay connected to them.

You know what I mean?

Physically anymore.

So it's like, I'm not trying to mess with that flow anymore.

Like, I don't need to try to communicate.

Like, I'm not meant to be communicating with them anymore.

I think nice signs like the birds and everything.

Yes.

Yeah.

But yeah.

But that's in my mind, that's the spirit world communicating with me, not me communicating with the spirit world.

That's not the flow it's supposed to go in.

Did anybody watch Froggers on Lifetime like last summer, two summers ago?

Is that the people who live in the ceiling?

Yes, people who had people living in the house and didn't know it.

It was like eight episodes.

But then I also this year watched something like it's like the true murders of Elm Street or something.

And it's like different episodes where people died on Elm Streets.

And that was the same case from Froggers was on there.

But the premise was these girls did a Ouija Board to try to talk to their dead mother.

And then they started having signs like lights flickering, banging on the walls.

There was noise responding to their questions.

But we come to find out it was the girl's ex-boyfriend who was living in the house the whole time at the walls.

So it was not the father communicating from the dead.

That movie The Boy, where it's this girl who's an au pair for a doll.

And she thinks the doll's alive the whole time, but then come to find out that the boy is living in the walls and moves the doll when she's not looking.

What movie is that?

The Boy.

Yeah, that's somewhat newish.

Yeah, it's actually quite good.

No, I'll Wikipedia and read the whole movie, but I will not watch it.

Yeah, I don't like scary movies.

I like knowing what happens, but I can't watch it.

Yeah, my personal, like new top favorite is The Haunting of Hill House.

Yeah, no, I love that show.

I don't like horror and I also don't like psychologic thrillers, like those like that.

There's a movie that I watched in college called The Tenet.

Oh, and have you seen it?

I think I've heard of it.

Yeah.

And this girl or this one.

It's not a woman.

I'm sorry.

It's a man.

Oh, that scared me.

It's Joey.

It's Joey.

She keeps walking around here, creeping me out.

I don't like horror movies with kids as the lead.

No, so The Tenet is about this like guy who rents a room and he sees this like woman across the way in a phone booth and he watches her every night at the same time.

It's like 3 a.m.

or something.

He like slowly like starts finding things like around his place.

Like he finds lipstick and he thinks this woman's like breaking in.

And it really ends up, you know, spoiler alert for everyone who hasn't seen The Tenet.

It's an old movie.

He becomes the woman and then, yeah, and he's the one that's going across the street, like in the phone booth.

And it like freaked me out.

Like when I would wake up at 3 a.m., I'd be like, oh, my gosh, who's this woman that's going to come get my mind?

And those are the kind of movies that freaks me out.

I like those kind of plot twists.

Or like The Sixth Sense.

I love that movie.

Anyway, the podcast is called The Exorcist Files.

And I heard about it when I was listening to a podcast called Blurry Creatures, which is also about conspiracies.

So this started.

So anyway.

And they had the guy who runs the podcast, his name is Ryan Bethea.

And Ryan Bethea is like not...

He started the podcast, did not believe in like any sort of like exorcism or whatever.

And he interviews this priest who has performed to many exorcisms.

And it's like all about what the priest has done.

And it's not just like, I think the idea is like, it's not that everybody looks like the girl who gets possessed on the exorcist.

Like demons can possess you in different ways.

Like they can, you know.

So anyway.

Or you could just be mentally ill.

You can also be mentally ill.

Well, I used to watch the show The Haunting after school every single day.

And I'm like, oh, I believe in that.

Yeah, I believe in that.

I just think there's more stuff in this world that you just can't explain.

Yeah, like you can, you know, try and explain it, but it's not always explainable.

All right, Megan, tell us how to play Ouija Board.

OK.

But do it in a scary voice.

Never taunt or go to spirit into communicating.

You're not supposed to be drinking.

You don't want to be laughing.

You'll be really focused.

You want to be intentional.

So you only want again.

This is actually only supposed to be done with two players.

If you have a third person, then they should be writing the responses.

You can analyze them later.

And only one person should be asking the question.

So if you should really plan in advance what your question is going to be, have one person asking, someone writing down the answers.

You can play alone, but I mean, I wouldn't recommend that, right?

And you have to be in a good head space.

So don't be mentally ill.

Don't be sick.

Don't be vulnerable.

You have no one to help it.

You have no one to help you, right?

Yeah.

Well, spirits take over.

Yeah.

If the planchette starts to count down or it goes through all of the letters, you want to stop it immediately.

Creepy.

The red flag, the spirit can escape or you have contacted a demon or evil spirit.

Oh, I like that.

Also, if the planchette makes a figure eight or infinity sign.

Oh, scary.

That just immediately gave me the...

I don't want to know.

Yeah.

So if you're making the figure eight, if it's going out of control, you want to say goodbye and then you want to stop the session.

So you always have to say goodbye.

You always have to say goodbye because you have to close out the...

So how do you say goodbye?

You just say goodbye?

Bye, Felicia, and you just hang out?

Yeah.

Or is there a closing ceremony?

Say thank you so much for your time.

In my opinion, you have to say thank you so much to this spirit that came through, and I appreciate your time.

And please don't haunt me forever.

Thank you.

Goodbye.

That's what I would say.

But I don't want to do it.

Like after ghost tours, they say, like, if you think one is following you, be like, stay here.

You are not coming to my house.

Yes.

Yeah, that's good.

You are not welcome at home.

So after you say goodbye, you want to remove the planchette from the board.

They can't.

Again, to close this, close the session.

The planchette is like the medium, per se.

Yeah, that's what they're speaking through.

Right.

OK.

OK.

Don't believe everything being said.

Spirits are mischievous.

Yes.

They may not be telling you the truth.

Yep.

They may be malicious.

Yeah.

So like, for example, if it tells you that you should go kill somebody or your mother.

And then 15 days later, bury her in the backyard.

Don't do that.

Maybe don't do that.

You know, not a good idea.

You should never use the Ouija Board in your home.

You want to find a neutral area that is brimming with positive energy.

So you kind of want to dark, quiet place because you don't want to scare the spirits.

You want them to be comfortable.

But like if you're at home and you happen to get a malicious entity, you don't want it to attach its dark energy to your home.

Exactly.

So you want it to be somewhere else.

Exactly.

But what you should not do, as I mentioned, is do it in a graveyard because there are way too many spirits.

Yeah.

You are going to be able to have a proper conversation.

Yeah.

They're all going to want to butt in.

I'm saying all of this like I believe any of it.

And this is just what the Internet is telling me.

I 100 percent believe that spirits would interrupt each other.

Write things down, as I mentioned, so you can interpret those responses later.

You should have different conductors ready.

And so that might be like candles, liquids, scents, because sometimes spirits might use those to communicate like when the candle goes out or something.

Yeah.

Never.

Did you guys know this?

You should never burn a Ouija Board.

Oh, how do you get rid of it?

If you want to destroy the board, well, you're not supposed to.

But whatever you do, do not burn the board because it's going to trap the spirit in the location of the session, or wherever you burn it, and that can make the spirit very angry.

Oh, no.

The best thing you can do is to store the board away from any users and you should stow the planchette in a completely different location so they can't use it to communicate.

Wow.

Always, always, always say goodbye.

Let's see what this says.

Saying goodbye is a quick way to politely tell the spirits that you are leaving now and they too must go.

If you don't say goodbye, the spirits can take offense and may linger in their anger, which can be dangerous.

Saying goodbye is dead by a thousand cuts.

When you're done, sage the room.

Yeah, sage, always sage.

As I mentioned, don't leave the planchette on the board.

So again, you can separate them, but at a minimum, you don't want that planchette.

That will leave the channel open, and we don't want the channel to be open and walk away.

No.

Don't ask when you will die.

That's number 13.

Ooh.

Oh.

Just cause you might not want to know, it could drive you crazy, and spirits might not be honest with you.

Right.

And then you're just going to prepare for it until and then it doesn't happen.

Like, you know, was it December?

What was it the Mayans said that the world was going to end?

2020.

It was the Mayans, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that we couldn't Ouija Board for all of our listeners at home.

I'm not doing that.

I know Kait said, firm no, we're not doing it.

I really want to do Ouija Boards for Halloween, but I do not want to actually do a Ouija Board.

And I said I didn't want to really research them because they just freak me out.

I don't want to invite any sort of that, any sort of that to me.

Sorry, Megan.

Yeah, Megan just haunted now.

I kept throwing out channels open.

Yeah, that's true.

That's right.

I am blocked to the spirits.

I kept being like, throwing out all these different spooky Halloween ideas and Kait was like, I'm telling you, it's got to be Ouija Boards.

It's got to be Ouija Boards.

But again, I don't want to look into them, but it's got to be Ouija Boards.

Yeah, scare me.

They scare me.

Okay.

Colleen, did you do your, you didn't do your opening, where you're like, have you ever?

Oh, well, because I did the opening, but yeah.

Died.

Died before.

I hope not.

That was so creepy.

Hey, keep that in.

All right.

Well, Jamie, thank you for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

We love having Jamie on the pod.

See you next Tuesday.

All right.

Happy Halloween, everybody, and we will see you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday.