Eriksson Twins Pt 2: Folie a Deux or Government Cover Up? (With Update from Kait)

**Discussion begins at 4:30**

Ursula and Sabina Eriksson were identical twin sisters born in Sweden in 1967.  They were the youngest of 4 children, and had an uneventful, happy childhood without any evidence of mental health issues or substance abuse.  Eventually, Ursula moved to the US, and Sabina moved to Ireland where she was living with her partner and two children in 2008. On Friday, May 16, Ursula went to visit her sister in Ireland. Later that day, they are seen running into traffic on the M6, and motorway cops are sent to check on them.  The girls were initially calm, on the side of the road chatting with cops, when suddenly, Ursula, bolted into the street, running into the side of a truck traveling 90 km/hr and crushing her legs.  While officers tended to Ursula, Sabina bolted  into the motorway where she was promptly hit by a car.  She remained unconscious for 15 minutes, before waking up combative and fighting with police.  The girls were shouting at each other “I recognize you, you aren’t real” and “they’re going to steal your organs”.   Both sisters were taken to the hospital for evaluation and treatment.  Ursula was taken to surgery and spent months convalescing in the hospital.  Toxicology screens were negative for drugs and alcohol.  Sabina, however, was released after evaluation and arrested for trespassing and assault on a police officer.   At booking, she denied any medical history, psychiatric history, or suicidal ideations.  While there, she was pleasant and joking with the officers.  She stated, “We say in Sweden, that an accident rarely comes alone.  Usually at least one follows, maybe two.”  On May 19, she pleads guilty to her charges for assaulting the police officer and trespassing on the motorway, and was sentenced to 1 day in jail (or time served).  

She is released from jail, and meets Glenn Hollinshead, who offers her a place to stay and to help find her sister.   The next day, he goes next door to ask his neighbor for some tea.  Glenn goes back into his house, and less than a minute later he comes out bleeding and saying “she stabbed me, she stabbed me” before dying.  Sabina eventually pleads guilty and is sentenced to 5 years in prison.  The defense claimed that she was a victim of folie-a-deux, or a madness shared by two.  They claimed that Ursula was the primary psychiatric sufferer, and Sabina only acted as she did because of the shared psychosis.  Is this an unfortunate case of mental illness?  Or were the twins involved in military experimentation, victims of mind control, involved in a drug trafficking scheme, or being observed by the police?  Is there more to the story?  This week, we discuss the theories more in depth and tell you what we believe.

Transcript

Hi, welcome back to part two of the Eriksson Twins
Or Eriksson Folie a deux. 
Thanks for joining two of the Scheme Queens. 
Yeah.  Kait this week, I actually received a chunk of stone in the mail with like a chiseled letter from her, cause she's actually transporting through time right now.  
Wait, she's in the time tunnel?
Yeah, she's on that ship from the Philadelphia experiment. You remember that episode? What's that episode, two?  Episode three? 
Episode two. 
 Yeah So she's with Loki, you know her idol. 
What about Bourbon boy?
 Oh, yeah. Bourbon boy is with the kids, Megan, obviously. 
She's just hanging out with Loki?
Yeah,  it's very low key, if you will. 
Well, thank you guys for joining us again. Just quick shout out before we get started. 
So this is the part in the show where we normally give somebody a shout out. We have some double dippers on our list. We're gonna give a shout out to my mom, the one, the only, Christine. And who is it? And... Your one, your only...
My Aunt Kathy donated again. 
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All right, and on that note. 
Drink check. 
Um, well, I'm on my second drink today, guys. I'm on a little bit of DC minus the rum. 
I'm still sipping on my-
 Your twin drink, but I will say it no longer has ice and it just looks so unappealing. I just don't trust that. If I ever get to the point where I'm an old lady and temperatures bother me that much, I'm done. I'm done. 
That's your line? 
Yeah. 
 I do always tell people you need to decide like what is an appropriate quality of life for you. And I like when people can pinpoint something - like if I can't play golf, I don't want to live anymore. 
Yeah. 
Everyone think about that, because that's a good answer to have. 
If I can't tolerate ice in my drink, put me on hospice. I'm out of here. 

Ursula and Sabina Eriksson are identical twin sisters who were born in Sweden in 1967. They're the youngest of four children and had an uneventful happy childhood without any evidence of mental health issues or substance abuse. Eventually, Ursula moves to the United States and Sabina moved to Ireland, where she was living with her partner and two children in 2008. On Friday, May 16th, Ursula goes to visit her sister in Ireland. Overnight, the sisters travel by ferry to Liverpool, arriving Saturday morning at 8.30am. Three hours later, they board a bus to London. However, the sisters get off of the bus at a service station and begin walking down the M6. The M6 motorway is the longest motorway in the UK. It's six lanes wide with a median running down the middle. So, three lanes going each direction, one median. CCTV camera captures the girls on the median and motorway cops being filmed for reality were sent out to check on the girls. The girls were initially calm on the side of the road chatting with cops when suddenly Ursula bolts into the street running into the side of a truck traveling 90 kilometers an hour and crushing her legs. 
Oh my God. 
While officers tend to Ursula, Sabina bolts into the motorway where she was promptly hit by a car. 
Oh my God. 
She remained unconscious for 15 minutes before she woke up combative and fighting with police. The girls are shouting at each other, They're going to steal your organs.
What? 
Sabina again tries to bolt from the officers and was restrained by officers and pedestrians. It took six people and chemical restraints to subdue her. Both sisters are taken to the hospital for evaluation and treatment. Ursula was taken to surgery and spent months convalescing in the hospital. Toxicology screens were negative for drugs and alcohol. Sabina, however, is released after evaluation and arrested for trespassing and assault on a police officer. At booking, she denies any medical history, psychiatric history, or suicidal ideations. While there, she is pleasant and joking with the officers. She states, we say in Sweden that an accident rarely comes alone. Usually, at least one follows. Maybe two. Hmm. On May 19th, she pleads guilty to her charges for assaulting the police officer and trespassing on the motorway and is sentenced to one day in jail or time served. 
Just one day? 
One day. She's released from jail and while praying in front of a church, she meets Peter and Glenn. Peter Molloy is 27, Glenn Holling's head is 54. So they're out walking Glenn's dog after having been at the pub around 9.30 PM. They run into Sabina who's looking for a B&B recommendation and she tells them that she's looking for her sister. As there was nowhere nearby to stay, Glenn, a retired RAF and part-time paramedic, full-time welder, invites her back to his house for the night and promises to help her locate her sister. 
I would not go home with a stranger like that. 
Glenn's friend said this was just normal behavior for him. He was just like a helpful guy.
Okay. 
Peter said that he got a vibe like she was maybe on the run from an abusive ex and seemed paranoid. In fact, at one point while having a few drinks, she offers them a cigarette from the pack she had been smoking from all night. But when they put them in their mouth, she starts screaming that they may be poisoned. 
What? 
Peter leaves at about midnight and Glenn assures him that all will be fine. The next day, after reaching out to his brother for help finding Ursula, he goes next door to ask his neighbor for some tea. Glenn goes back into his house and less than a minute later, he comes out bleeding and saying, "'She stabbed me, she stabbed me.'" 
What? 
The neighbor calls the cops and Glenn begs him to look after his dog before dying. Those are his final words. Look after my dog. Sabina is then seen fleeing the scene on CCTV. She runs for a while before stopping, then hitting herself in the head with a hammer that she had carried out of the home. A pedestrian tries to wrestle the hammer from her for her protection, but she hit him over the head with a roof tile that she had in her pocket and keeps running before leaping off a 40 foot bridge. After suffering a skull fracture and bilateral ankle fractures, she is hospitalized before being released into police custody and charged with the murder of Glenn Hollingshead. 
Oh my God. 
In the end, there is no trial. Psychiatrists for both the defense and prosecution agree that she was clinically insane at the time of the crime, but was sane at the time of the trial. She pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. The defense claims that she had fully adieu. It is French for a madness shared by two, and it is a rare psychiatric syndrome of shared psychosis between two people usually related. The lawyers allege that Ursula was the primary sufferer. and Sabina was the secondary sufferer. So when Ursula went to visit Sabina, Ursula was insane. Them spending time together caused Sabina to become insane. She's sentenced to five years in prison and apparently in prison she becomes this like board again Christian. She only served a total of three years and she was released in 2011. The judge described it as quote:
 "One of the most difficult cases he had ever had to sentence saying, while the mental illness resolved quickly, both psychiatrists agree it was serious and that she behaved in the way she did because of her illness. Her culpability for her behavior is on the medical evidence accordingly low. She was suffering from delusions which she believed to be true and they dictated her behavior. It is also not one of those cases where the defendant could have done something to avoid the onset. It had a sudden onset, it was a serious illness while it lasted, and it resolved rapidly."
 The sisters have since disappeared, and nobody is aware of their current whereabouts. there is no record of them ever having committed another crime. The internet is filled with conspiracy theories from the two women being government experiments to the two women being possessed by demons or by alien hybrids. The victim's own brother has come out to say that something else is definitely going on here. They've been unable to get any of the paperwork from the police, including transcripts, videos, and they just think there's more than shoddy police work going on here.
 So all right, so we hinted at the theories in the last episode and I kind of believed them all. I really don't know where I stand. 
Okay. So again, theory one we could say is you believe the defense and the prosecution that  it was all just folie a deux.  It was a psychiatric break. Never happened before will never happen again. 
Yeah. 
So that's one option. I'm not going to dig any deeper into that one. 
Oh, yeah. 
I told you what I found. I reached out to the smartest people I know for some reference.
Hi, Dr. Emilie. 
I watched some... 
I mean, you read a whole book for this episode. 
So that's the first theory, okay? You believe there is no conspiracy here. 
Yeah, okay. 
Next, the next theory...
Okay. Was this like a drug situation? 
Right. So, Obo is a term used by the Brits, I guess, when you're under observation by the police. 
Obo, okay. Is it an acronym or just a- 
It's like observation, but short. They're on Obo. 
Okay. 
And so the theory is like they were potentially drug runners and the police were onto them. And that's why they made all these stops. And it was why people kept letting them go. 
Oh, they were watching them. 
They were watching them to get to like- 
The big honcho. 
Exactly. That's it. There are rumors that Sabina's partner in Ireland was part of a drug trafficking ring and they were already under observation. And then there's again, not a lot of information about this partner. I did read that he maybe was in the military, maybe lived in Texas for a period of time and maybe had like some domestic assault history. 
But he was Irish, right? Or we don't know that. 
Well, I guess we yeah, we have no idea. 
So this man. Police described him as, "a big black. bloke covered in gold jewelry, not the kind of bloke you'd wish to approach. He's a man that locals go to see to sort out any trouble they might have". 
And he's the father of Simon? Or that's also questionable?
No, because... that's what I wrote, but he might've had some kids and she might've had two kids and like, so I don't want to lock down whose kids. 
Parental history of the twins' children's is a little confusing. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
So again, was there some sort of big drug trafficking happening here, where the police or government agencies were observing them to get to the higher ups? There's thoughts that like when they were clutching onto those bags and wouldn't let anybody look in them, perhaps they were full of drugs or full of cash. We know they had a thousand euro in their clear plastic bag. 
Which is that a lot? 
So that's about a thousand dollars. 
I mean that's more than I've ever held on me. 
Your plastic bag? 
In my plastic bag, yeah. 
And three cell phones. 
Yeah the three cell phones. When you said that detail, that like lit up a little bit for me.
And so again, that you're the service station employee calls to report a suspected bomb. As we mentioned, no bomb dog show up, no SWAT team shows up. Three cops show up. They talk to these girls for a couple of minutes and then never look in their bag and they just like let them go on their way. 
Well, if your theory is that the cops were already observing them, maybe that's why they didn't investigate. 
Well, exactly. 
Yeah, that makes sense they don't want to go into their bag and find something. They want to just be naive, walk away, and continue their survey. 
And to continue watching them. 
Oh, oh my God. Oh, I'm developing my theory. 
Again, we mentioned that Peter saw a pile of cash in Sabina's belongings. We talked about the multiple phones in the bag. If you believe this theory, you could argue... because remember I told you it was really unclear about that stop that they made at the bus stop?  Like, it sounds like that was not a planned stop. And there's like theories that like the guy, the driver was uncomfortable, he pulled over, maybe there was a driver change, which we know is not accurate. Maybe they felt sick, they had to get off, you know, use the restroom. I don't know what happened. They weren't allowed back on that bus. So one of the theories could be were they trying to make a deal? Is that why they got off the bus? 
Or were they so scared about transporting that much drugs that they started panicking? 
Maybe. I could see that. 
A little GI distress from all the anxiety. 
Yeah. Girl, we've all been there. 
And then there's, you know, again, there was like that two hours and I think I said two hours and 20 minutes unaccounted for between when the cops left them and when they're walking down the M6, which is really just like a block away. 
Yeah. 
So people think like maybe they interacted with someone at that point. Like maybe like a drug person was supposed to make a deal. But then like the they're like, 'hey, we just saw these cops talking to you.' 
Oh, and maybe they acted crazy to protect the drug lord. 
I don't know. I don't. 
Based on the videos, I don't think they were. 
But that's what you talk about. Bjorn being like they were running from this maniac. And we all think that's crazy. But was the maniac like the drug lord?  Was somebody like, 'I don't know if I can trust you. I just saw you talking to these cops'. 
Oh, they panicked and they and they thought they were going to die. So they ran around. It's too much. 
And again, the fact that they were they every time they go to the police station, they get let out very quickly. They go to file their own report and then it's like, no one's worried they just like left their kids, right? That was literally, then they get arrested. She gets released after a day, right? 
It's too suspicious. 
Yeah, she only gets three years after murdering a man. 
I do not know much about the UK laws. Like, maybe they just don't criminalize people.
Well, I think in general, we are significantly harsher. So, I mean, like maybe that plays a part. I don't know. 
But without a doubt, though, the police were not doing things appropriately for sure. And then David Cann, who wrote that book. OK. A Madness Shared by Two by David Cann. 
What was his last name? 
Cann. 
David can and yes he can. 
Glenn's brother Paul is also heavily involved.
Right. 
And again, I try to take what they're saying with a grain of salt, but there's so little information out there and then David Cann believes that someone else was involved in the murder of Glenn... that the neck and chest wound didn't match the blade. And again, we talked about allegedly Sabina was left handed if we believe this one photo from her high school...
But also like like when you take a picture of somebody isn't it reversed?  I get really confused when i'm like taking a picture versus a selfie and like the way things are in pictures 
When you take a picture in the mirror...
Yeah, so like I don't know... I mean I believe she was writing with her left hand but I don't know that means she's not ambidextrous yeah we don't know anything um but to get a claim is again that she was assaulted from someone with from the right someone who's right-handed the two different knives so they believe that there was someone else involved. 
I gotta see like the wound.  So there's multiple wounds? 
Four wounds. 
Four wounds, and they think that some are like different weapons. 
Can they tell which weapon was angled which way? Is that documented like, oh, this weapon looks like it came from the right or did they all come from the right? 
No, and we're gonna post the picture. 
Yeah, because I'm thinking like maybe she had like, If she's ambidextrous, maybe she had a weapon in each hand and was just... 
And again, he had no defensive wounds. I would think that... 
Well, if she clocked him in the neck right away, he's probably clutching his neck. You know what I mean? I need the autopsy. 
Well, the autopsy was shoddily done. 
Yeah, you're right. I forgot about that part. This is a theme for all of our stories.
Well, it wouldn't be story. There wouldn't be mysteries. The question... there was also this question about if Glenn and Sabina had been texting and not met by chance because the official story is like, she's praying at the church. She looks across the street. He's walking his dog. He's just there. 
Was he with Peter, though? 
Yeah. So Peter and Glenn leave the pub. They've got Glenn's dog and they're walking. Peter and Glenn, are neighbors kind of, you know, and so as far as Peter knew, this was the first time they had met. But one of the theories is that Glenn and Sabina might have met previously and they were like kind of covering all that up for Peter. So again, I told you that he told his friend Mike, he was meeting a girl at the church and that was like at four thirty in the afternoon, even though they didn't meet until sometime between seven thirty and nine thirty. 
It's all so suspicious. 
Yes. And then isn't Peter's story the one that changes? Like he said one time and now...
Yeah, I don't know. It was early as seven thirty. 
Is he a trustful historian? 
I don't know.  And then if she was obo, maybe one of her associates had told her to like, you know, stay away from us, but go find Glenn. Glenn can help you. Oh, Glenn apparently maybe had a history also of some substance. abuse That would make sense. So there are some theories like they coordinated. And maybe he was like, you know, meet me back here at that 730 or something. Her belongings, as I mentioned, were littered along the street without anything of value. And so I did. I told you that. Peter found those the next day. 
And he recognized it. 
Yeah. And so, like, again, does this sound like someone who is having a panic attack stabs someone and flees, or does it sound like a robbery of some sort? Or like, if there was somebody- A third party. In the business, and he murdered him, did he take the wad of cash and the cell phones- 
And the drugs. 
And the drugs, and just leave, like cassette tapes and shit behind. 
I got to say, because she met up with the boys after leaving the jail. They would have already checked her bags for drugs, right? 
Unless. Unless they lied. 
Yeah, unless they were following her. 
Or maybe she didn't have any drugs. Maybe she'd sold the drugs and this was just like... Yeah. I don't know. Is it possible that someone had gone to Glenn's to pick up the wad of cash she had or perhaps some drugs? Is that who killed Glenn? Again, at a minimum, we do know that Glenn was involved with drugs, specifically, he was into some heroin. Also, Glenn's own brother said he was not domesticated, he lived on takeaway. So the idea that he was making Sabina something to eat two nights in a row was reportedly unlike him. Part of what makes this whole thing crazier, too, is like, we have never heard from Sabina. All we got was no comment when she was interrogated. There was never actually a trial because they had this plea deal. So like, we just have, we've never heard of Sabina. 
She's just scraped by. 
Yeah. 
So if this was all about her getting the money to a drug dealer, like assuming she sold all the drugs and this thousand Euro was all she had, to me, going to a different country, so going like Ireland to England, flying your sister in, going from Ireland to England, assuming it was all for one giant like drug deal, a thousand euro is not that much money. Like, I would have assumed she'd be carrying like...
600 grand? 
Triple digit, or not triple, six digit amount of money kind of shit. This would have been a huge drug deal. 
Yeah, a thousand dollars doesn't seem enough to be like, obo. 
Yeah. And I'm like, and how many, what was the time chunk where we don't know where she was? Like 12 hours or something like that? 
Well, there were 17 hours. At what point? 
Well, since leaving the jail. 
17 hours between when she was having drinks with Peter and Glenn and the next day when she reportedly killed Glenn. 
I don't know. It just doesn't seem likely that she had that much cash on her but again when we go back to like never hearing Sabina's side of the story - what was she scared of?  Iis that why she said 'no comment' Because she was like there are higher ups?
The neighbor who witnessed the death allegedly claimed off the record that Glenn's house had been obo for 18 to 24 months before the murder.  Though he thought he was only selling pot. His brothers say that he and his ex-girlfriend had racked up a lot of debt with drug dealers and the family had a lot of fights about his finances and him tricking his parents for money. In his defense, he was apparently on a methadone program at the time of his death, but we do know that he consumed quite a bit of alcohol. So again, no tox screen on his autopsy?
 Well, going back to what I said about like maybe not enough cash. If we're dealing with like the biggest jefe for drugs, they would have had enough people. Like, I'm going to assume maybe it's like gang related to like they probably have people in the hospital. They probably have people in the in the police. I mean, they probably have enough connections to slip all this under the rug. 
And then they said that in 2007, 2008, when this all happened, there was a crackdown on drug trafficking happening in England with Operation Happy Fish and Operation Junko, leading to 3.5 billion euros in drugs to be confiscated over four years. And in... There was a massive drug bust of 500 million years of cocaine being transported to the UK from Dublin. So we're probably in the time period for them to be cracking down.
 Oh, I'm settling down on the drug dealing theory now. I'm thinking I'm leaning. We still have more theories to go through, but like this is making sense. Them being crazy doesn't make sense. But the reason why they're there and unless they're just crazy because they were so scared for their work. 
Yeah. 
But Dr. Emilie says they're not the age group to have that quick of a psychotic breakdown. 
I didn't mean psychotic break, but just if it was like, I've got to get out of this situation to kill myself because the alternative is... 
But her screaming, like, I recognize you. 
Yeah, I don't know. 
Yeah, I don't know.
 I don't know. OK, what else we got? 
So that's theory one. 
Well, two, right? Like you either believe in the folie a deux... 
All right, theory three. 
Hit me. 
MK mind control. So, we've talked about MK Ultra before. 
Many times. 
So, the sisters could have, like the question is, could the sisters have been subject to a government mind control program? 
Yes. 
As a reminder, MK Ultra was a CIA program from the 1950s to early 1970s. that used unwitting citizens as test subjects. The mind control studies included secretly dosing patients with LSD and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual assault, and torture. This is not a conspiracy theory like it happened. 
Yeah, this is fact. 
It was exposed in a 1977 Senate hearing, and there's a ton of evidence out there. So go back to Montauk part two. 
If you haven't listened to episode four, episode four. 
But again, these experiments had various purposes, including but not limited to creating new identities, inducing amnesia, inserting hypnotic access codes into subjects minds, creating multiple personalities and creating false memories. The research also included placing brain electrodes in people in an attempt to control their behavior from remote transmitters, administering daily dosages of LSD to children for extended periods of time. and using electroconvulsive therapy to erase memories. 
Wow. 
Part of MKUltra was Operation Bluebird, which according to a now declassified memorandum had the following goals: To obtain accurate information from willing and unwilling individuals;To condition personnel to prevent any outside power from obtaining information from them by any known means; To control future activities, physical and mental of any individual willing or unwilling; To prevent outside powers from gaining control of activities, physical and mental of personnel by any means. So to be clear, as far as we know, there has been no more MK Ultra since the 70s. 
That we know. 
That we know. Yeah. 
If they're willing to do it once, they're probably willing to do it twice. 
Just those Operation Bluebird goals. Like, okay, their goal was to... prevent any outside power from obtaining information from them by any known means. So them, it like, did they have some kind of self-destruct mode? Like you see... 
Oh, like the twins had any sort of... 
So over and over again, they'll be chatting with the police officers, they're fine, and then like someone walks up with the yellow coat... 
And they're boom triggered ..
and they lose it. 
So were they triggered like when you see this cop... You must self destruct?  Was it like a self-destruct mode?
My question like yeah, I could totally see that but the CIA like they did all that in America. Where would these twins have been? 
Yeah You know, I mean, oh, we're gonna get into that. 
Okay.
But we do know that these twins were both in America for a period of time. 
You're right Oh, I forgot about that. 
So yeah, they had been in and out of America .
But I would have assumed that I would have assumed that this would have happened in their childhood.
Okay, you make a valid point and I'm gonna get to that .
So I'm excited. 
Okay. Just to finish this thought that again, their goal was like to control activities, physical and mental activities, individual and prevent any outside power from obtaining information from them. And so you could argue that they were programmed,, like our theory could be they're like programmed via all of this brainwashing, all this experimentation to be controlled, do what they're told and self-destruct if they fail. And is that what was happening?  Was this like attempt at self-destruct? 
I could totally see this too. Oh my God, I don't know what I want to believe. I feel like my head's spinning. 
So you brought up a really good point though, because I had the same thought as you, that I was like, okay, there's a lot of things out there, like MKUltra is responsible, but how do you make this leap? Like how did they even get involved in MKUltra? 
As like 40 year old women, yeah. 
So CIA did go international and they did do MKUltra experiments in Europe and other countries. Again, we have no. proof-proof of this happening after like the 70s. 
Okay. 
But I did a little digging. 
Okay. 
And I'm like, well, did anything like this happen in Scandinavia? 
Oh my God. 
Because these girls grew up in Sweden. 
Don't tell me that... 
They spent a lot of time living in Norway, living in Sweden. 
Oh my God. And we're going to bring this back to the Nazis for a moment. 
Oh my God.
Yeah, because context, these two twins are very white, blue-eyed and blonde. 
Well, they're dye blonde. 
Oh, I thought they were blonde. No, you can see they have dark roots. And then when you see the pictures, the pictures look blonde. Childhood pictures look blonde. And they're blonde in the 40s in these shots. They're blonde at this. 
They're brunette now. And you can see that they have dark roots. 
OK. All right. 
But yes, but they would be very Aryan. 
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  
So I did some research. So the Nazis wanted to take racially valuable people. we know. And they thought Scandinavian women were suitably Aryan because they tend to be blonde-haired, blue-eyed, like you're describing. And they would encourage them, they would encourage Nazis, Nazi men and Scandinavian women to reproduce together. 
Oh God. 
And they would call the children Lebensborn. And then they would house these women and like pay child support, give free medical care, dental care, et cetera,  to the women and these children. There are about 12,000 children born during the war and were often encouraged to be given up for adoption. About a third of them didn't know who the father was. And initially these kids were really looked down on. But now they recognize they were mistreated. They call them war children. Now this program started in the 1930s. The mom was born in the 1930s. So it might have been too early. 
Okay. 
And I was like, was the mom a victim? Was the mom studied throughout her life? Was the, I don't know, we've got twins. Were these twins being studied? 
Yeah, I don't know. 
There's a lot of - I mean, can't you see, if you've got some crazy government people doing studies, wouldn't they love to study some twins, don't you think? 
Yeah.  The information you could get. 
Anyway, so I don't know if the mom was a war child and if maybe that had something to do with something. I do know these children were often experimented on with the approval of the Norwegian government and the...financing of the...
Nazis? 
No.
Oh.  
Financing of the CIA!  You wanted to go somewhere with the Nazi gold, didn't you? 
Oh, my God. I still can't believe that I believed about the Nazi gold, guys. I'm so sorry.
We know that. 
Oh, my God. The CIA. 
We know as recently as the 70s, the CIA was doing LSD experiments. Dosing people with LSD without their knowledge. And again, could this bright fluorescent jackets have kind of set something off for the twins? Both instances where the twins ran into traffic, the instigating factor was the arrival of police.
 And the yellow reflective jacket. 
Yeah, so it was a self-destruct. 
Wow. 
Also, you know, we, we will have to cover RFK's assassination because the theory with RFK is that... one of the theories is that the shooter was hypnotized.
Oh.  
Like were these... were these girls hypnotized. 
Oh. And that's what was happening. 
Which hypnotize would make sense for such a short term psychotic breakdown. That would make sense. Oh my god. 
I don't want to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist.  I would love to buy into this. I think it makes sense the fact that they're like the goal here is to control people and not let them get like and self-destruct before any information is released. And I feel like that explains this. I just have a hard time. Like you said, like where did this MK Ultra... 
Yeah, where would they have been involved in that? Like was this happening to them as children in Sweden and Norway and Scandinavia? 
Could be.
But we don't have any proof that was happening at that time. 
I don't know. 
Was this happening as they're both in the United States being experimented on? Was there some kind of like green card for research? Because again. I think it's fishy that Sabina now has a felony conviction and was able to travel.  She's still able to travel into the United States. She's still able to have a job that we feel is suspicious. 
Well, is there a thing where like if your record is so many years old, it doesn't matter? 
I don't know, I heard there were also some theories online that maybe she - Ursula was listing her as like the au pair or something and they were...
Hiding her identity or no, but like somehow getting around these restrictions with. 
Oh my god. 
So yeah, that's the... that's like the mind control theories, which again, I could buy into but I'm just having... the timelines are not quite adding up for me. And so you would have to believe that there is still MK Ultra like experimentation happening and then yeah, how did these girls stumble into that? 
I could totally see that experiments are still happening. Again, if they're willing to do it once, they're probably going to do it a couple more times. However, the likelihood of these women being involved is a little bit weird for me because they are just all over the place. I mean, their history. 
This is maybe me because again, I just don't believe the folie a deux theory. So maybe I'm just reaching for something.  Part of me does feel like being twins, they would be more likely to be of interest to the government. 
Experiments, yeah. 
I also mentioned there's a lot of like Swedish twin research happening, but as far as I know, I think that's just like- 
Genetics. 
Or like, just like kind of a observation types. Like they have a list of twins born, but I don't think they're like actually- 
Well, is there like a freakishly number of twins in Sweden? Like, what do you mean by the Swedish? 
Oh, no, there's like a famous registry. 
Oh, I don't know anything about that. I will say my mom is an identical twin. I mentioned that in the first episode about this, and I don't think she's ever been asked to join in on experiments. 
Well, we'll have to ask. 
I know the Swedish twin registry - It's the largest registry. I don't know if I would register my kids. That seems like a little bit of none of your business. It was established in the 1960s, has eighty seven thousand pairs of twins. That's a lot. Oh, but you're right. So see, I was like, are there studies going at present? There are around 30 projects covering a variety of topics, including allergies, cancer, dementia. 
And I don't know. 
We'll have to ask your mom about that. Yeah? If she's been asked, if she's ever... 
But with the Folie a deux theory, I just... they say that Ursula was a crazy one first, but I just don't think we have enough background about her, like her traveling to like England and everything like that. 
Like we hear so much about Sabina because she's the one that wasn't hospitalized for weeks, but like I need more about Ursula and I think it's not out there. 
Well, like when she, if she was crazy first, how come there's no documented signs of her being crazy? Before all this? 
Before, yeah. 
Yeah, and they're arguing that like they... 
Because who was she living with? Does she have a partner? 
She's got a partner. 
And he or she didn't say anything about her being nuts? You know what I mean? 
Yeah. I mean... So... I think also that they're claiming that both these girls had to get sedatives in order to be transported. 
Oh yeah. The videos of them guys is crazy. And then they seem normal. And so it's like, oh, was it because they got anti-psychotics? But I guess I also, yeah, we should have more information because if you're arguing that no one is in danger anymore, how do you know that? 
Because you've put Ursula on an anti-psychotic. 
Yeah. I don't know. 
Yeah, take her off the meds. See what happens. How about that? 
And that I just feel like we need more information if you're arguing that like no one is in danger.  
Yeah, I'm just... 
Then there's another theory that the Soviet Union was working on top secret projects to create super soldiers. 
Oh, this is... 
We've talked about this theory a lot, like the super soldiers. 
We have?
Because I talked about Bucky. This is Captain America.  Maybe I talked about it with Kait... We were probably talking about it.   And I was like, well, it aligns with Bucky's story, like to a T.   So they had to have written him about the theory.   But anyways, he is a Soviet. He's a super soldier. He was kidnapped and experimented on, given drugs to become a super soldier. 
Yes, they are claiming that there were 300 volunteers of young age that were implanted with gold electrodes in their brains eliminating the pain center, their limb bones were replaced with titanium implants that protected the soft tissue against landmines or shells, as well as from gunshot injuries.   In this case though, the injuries would not cause crushing bones and amputations, so yeah I don't know... 
I just don't really know that we have a lot of evidence...
They're claiming these twins are based on the fact that they just kept getting hit and like getting back up.
 Well, I'm going to say in my career, I have dealt with super strength... super strength I've never seen before. So I feel like when people are confused, delirious, maybe having a psychotic breakdown, they just their strength is insane. So I don't think they're super soldiers. I think they were just crazy. 
I mean, they were both injured and cared for. I think that also if you lack, it's kind of like when like drunk drivers never get as injured. 
Yeah, because they're relaxed. 
Yeah, they're lacking the...
I could see that, yeah. 
And we know that like drug users, right? They always do well. So I feel like, yeah, I'm not surprised at whatever adrenaline rush they had going on. 
I mean, both of their legs ended up crushed. 
Yeah. 
So they weren't all okay. 
Which is very twin of them. They both succumb to the same injury. To bilateral injuries.  
Yeah, so I don't know if I believe. that like they were Soviet Super Soldiers.  They were very athletic. Everyone said, athletic their whole life. 
They look like some... I mean, athletic build. You see the video of Sabina running away and like that woman, like jumped the fence like a gazelle and then got hit by a car. I shouldn't be laughing, but it was impressive. 
There's also a theory about possession. 
Like demonic possession? 
Yes, like the superhuman strength was proof of like demonic involvement. And she did become, they both became very religious. And the one, Ursula, could have had like an exorcism done at her local church.
 Oh my God. 
But again, there was like all, she was all over the church's website for a brief period of time. And then the church took down the photos to protect her. Well. So we don't really know too much about. 
People who have like psychosis or some form of psych issues, like schizophrenia, for example, they tend to bring up, like they tend to present like a demonic in a way. And maybe they both just have schizophrenia. 
Well, I was thinking kind of like anti-NMDA encephalitis. But again, both of them having it at the same time and then both of them getting better without treatment. 
Explain what that is for the public. 
Uh, so.
 Because that's a big word, Megan. 
Anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis is a type of encephalitis inflammation of the brain. You can watch on Netflix. 
Oh, the, yes, that's a good movie. 
There's also a book about it. But often these patients present like they're having like mental breaks. 
They're crazy. 
Yeah. And so sometimes it'll be like people wandering their street naked. And it's someone who had like no psychiatric history. And then you find out their brain is literally on fire and their brain is attacking itself. Usually there is some kind of teratoma or mass like a uterine or testicular mass. You have to remove that and then the body stops attacking itself. But like if you look at it - if you watch Brain on Fire, it starts with her just kind of being paranoid. Like, yes, she thinks she has bed bugs and like hallucinating. And it's like people are out to get her and it's just like progresses. 
And they just keep putting her on meds in the movie. 
Yeah. And then eventually you start having seizures and then your seizures can't stop.  And you like go into a coma and you die unless you get some good, like immunosuppressant treatment and source control if you have like a tumor. 
I could agree with you on that same point. I could see these girls having some form of encephalitis. 
But the fact that like they both got at the same time and then they both got better without treatment... 
Oh, without treatment is definitely weird. But getting it at the same time, that's not... I don't think that's weird for a twin. 
Like you see them getting like, oh, both twins miraculously get their appendix out, you know what I mean? 
No, no, no. 
But like that can't that's like a thing with twins, isn't it? Like get appendicitis at the same time. Yeah. or like illnesses at the same time. 
We need to hear from a twin. 
Yeah. Mom. 
So, OK, possession. 
Right. 
Doesn't sound like you're buying. 
No, I don't think so. 
Yeah. Not going into that one either. 
Skip. 
And then we have cult. 
Oh, I kind of I'm like dipping into each theory other than the demon one. 
I read something where someone said 'oh, was she a member of the Children of God?' And I'm like, 'what is the Children of God?' And then there's like a million documentaries. 
Yeah. You just keep learning. 
You go down that rabbit hole. 
It's so hard not to. And then you like try to crawl back to reality. And you're like a changed woman. 
We were talking about how like the sometimes investigators. maybe have  an opinion and then they try to match evidence to fit their opinion and we don't want to do that.
When I see this conspiracy theory, I suffer from that.   But I do suffer from that because I will Google things and then I just keep clicking on things that keep telling me the same thing.  And then I have to go back and be like, no, let me look up the opposite.  Now, you got to see it from both sides. Because again, the point of this podcast is yes, to talk about conspiracies, but either way, if it's right or wrong, we're just trying to prove something. 
So we're going to talk about cults. 
Oh, yeah. All right. Hit me with the cult. 
The Family International formed as the Children of God. 
This is the cult we're assuming they were part of. 
The Children of God is this cult. The Family International was a religious movement founded in 1968. It's gone through a number of different names, including Children of God, Family of Love, and The Family. And so the reason this even pops up as like a potential thing is that Sabina did you see her wearing her red visor with her long red coat? 
I saw the coat. I did not take note of the visor, but you mentioned it. 
So the visor that Sabina was wearing said quote 'time to believe', which I guess is a phrase used with this cult. So, a little background. The British court ruled based on testimony by former members that this was an authoritarian cult which engaged in physical and sexual abuse of children. The leader was David Berg or Father David and he preached doom and gloom, very apocalyptic, end of the world type stuff. He preached hippie communal living and in the 70s, he had 130 communities in 70 countries and 10,000 members. They were opposed to abortion, homosexuality, drugs, drunkenness. They also practiced severe corporal punishment and sequestration of minors. So here was what was interesting. They had this thing called flirty fishing. 
Oh, God. 
Which pretty much just encouraged females to have sex with potential converts. So there were about a quarter million recipients of flirty fishing with 100,000 converts in the 70s and 80s. The twins were well, they think that Sabina was flirty. They think Sabina, whenever she was calm, she was very flirty. She was like flirting with all the police. 
Oh, now I thought this was another aspect of her like psychosis because confused people can be overly sexual. 
Yeah. Again, you just like have that frontal inhibition. 
Yeah. Lizard brain, right? Mate, mate, mate. 
Anyways, what else can I say? 
Reptile human. 
They also released a statement in 1989 to its members reminding them that adult/child sexual contact was grounds for immediate ex-communication. So glad that you made that an official announcement. So your followers could know that it wasn't okay for them to be having sex with children. 
But didn't the leader have sex with children? 
Yeah. But I mean, the fact that they were like, you know what, we're going to nip this in the bud. Never mind. We're just going to make this statement and then we'll all be on the up and up. You know? Then they came out and they said, 'yeah, in the 70s and 80s, there were minors subject to sexually inappropriate advances. But now we have this new policy. We're all good.' So this founder died in the 90s. His widow, Karen Zerbe, took over along with Berg's assistant, whom he had handpicked for her. So she's like the queen and he's the queen consort. There's a lot of famous people in this cult. River and Joaquin Phoenix. 
Oh my God. 
Rose McGowan. I don't know who that is.  
 Yes, you do. Rose McGowan. Yeah, she's all over the place. She was  in charmed. 
She's crazy. 
And then like one of the early members of Fleetwood Mac. 
Not Stevie. 
And then loving Jesus is the term they used to describe their intimate sexual relationship with Jesus. They believe the followers are Christ's bride and they encourage members to join them during sexual intercourse and masturbation. 
Oh my God. Male members are cautioned to visualize themselves as women in order to avoid homosexual relationships with Jesus. Uh, it's like, it's so bizarre. 
But how, and the only weak connection we have between the twins and this cult is Sabina's visor? 
Yeah. The only connections I could find to this theory were like the fact that she had this visor on, they went on to become very religious, both of them. And, um, the fact that there was like some hypersexual behavior, which again, as you said, I think psychotic break can also explain.  Well, like disinhibit.
Yeah. I'm I don't know if I believe they're in this cult. 
In 2010, this cult did have a raid where they seized a lot of marijuana plants. I think that if we're believing that this was like an obo situation, like you said, it would have to be more than this after like an international drug trafficking scheme and probably not just like some marijuana that the cult is. 
Yeah, no. No, no, no. 
Yeah. So those are the theories that I have. 
I don't know. I think. I don't think they're a cult. I don't think they were possessed by demons. 
You don't think they're Soviet Super Soldiers... 
Oh yeah, I also don't think they're super soldiers. 
So we're torn, and do you think... but you believe a little bit of the Folie a deux?  I do. I do believe a little bit of the Folie a deux.  But the only part that confuses me with that is that I just don't know enough about Ursula. Because the whole point of that theory is that Ursula made Sabina crazy. And I just don't think we have enough documentation on Ursula. pre-incident to like play into that. 
Yeah. 
Also Ursula flew from Santa Barbara to Ireland. I don't think a crazy person could do that. 
Could just like sit on a plane quietly. 
I think they went crazy in England, like in Ireland or England. Like I don't think that crazy happened before. It would make more sense to me then that Sabina would be like, I need you to come here. It would make more sense if she was in distress. 
Doesn't make so much sense for her defense, though, which is arguing that like she's not a risk to anybody.  
And if that's the case, then it seems like her and Ursula shouldn't be allowed to hang out if it's like, oh, this was all because of Ursula. 
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 
Yeah, I don't know. 
I think it definitely no matter what, they had a mental breakdown. Like I think in some way, no matter what the background story was, they were psychotic in that moment. But were they psychotic because they were on drugs? Were they psychotic because they were just crazy together? I don't know. But the drug dealing I could see, but then again... Maybe they just swept too much evidence under the rug kind of thing. Like maybe we just don't have enough information. 
I don't know. I feel like you almost have to believe... like this obo theory to be like, again, how post 9/11 could anybody call in a bomb threat? And the whole world doesn't shut down or, you know what I mean? Like and they just come and they chit chat and they send them on their way. 
They had to have been under observation. They had to have been involved. 
And then the neighbor to come out and say like, oh, Glenn's house has been under obo for two years. 
Yeah, you're right. You're right. 
Maybe it's mental breakdown plus drugs, I think is my final verdict. Drug dealing. 
Yeah. Or were they sampling their product? 
Maybe they had to get rid of the evidence and they just took a bunch of drugs? 
Or maybe this all goes back to where now we're just like, there's no fact here. We're just like jumping to something - Like what if Sabina's partner who was allegedly trouble...
Oh, I forgot about his character because he was a weird guy. 
Yeah. So if he allegedly he was in he was like...  
He has traveled he's bounced around.
Right, so if he's a part of a drug dealing hierarchy... so, they allegedly had a fight about money.
I bet she took something from him. 
 Well, did she call her sister? 
No, that was my theory. Maybe she took something from him. But like, was the fight about money?  Or was it him saying 'go make this deal'. And like, she didn't want to do that. I don't know.  Apparently he was also under observation. But yeah, something happened. Is she like, 'I need my sister'. Her sister comes. Maybe they're not like, you know, experienced drug mules. 
Yeah.
 Maybe they're, you know, they keep having these run ins with the police officers. Is someone like 'prove you're not a cop.' And then they have to sample their product?
Going back to present day, knowing what we know about where they are and what they do now. I don't think anybody that was ever under obo or was ever with a criminal record could be where they are right now, unless they were informants. 
Yeah, unless they like got a deal out of it.
Yeah. 
You give us all the information on these drugs and we'll wipe the record clean.
Yeah, I could see that. Cause the giant drug bust in Ireland and England happened like three years after this. 
2007, 2008, like right when this happened. 
Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. I think that's gonna be my final verdict. I think mental breakdown and drug dealing. 
And again, the fact that Glenn's brother is like, 'I've been trying and trying to get anything from the police'. And they can't get access to anything. 
Yeah.
 He's like, 'you know, we didn't really get closure because we didn't, there was no trial.' So like it's nothing. We just don't, we have this like official report that the BBC gave us is like kind of the version they're going on. And then when he's like, 'can I see any kind of like transcripts, any kind of video, anything, what evidence did you have?' and no one is able to provide that. So like, you know, what's up with that? 
I don't know. 
I just really do want to buy into the like... not want to, it terrifies me, but part of me does think that like, if we could prove that MKUltra experiments were happening at that time, like in Ireland or in Sweden or in Santa Barbara, it would click everything into place. That also makes sense that like the goals of these experiments, it totally makes sense with them, like trying to self destruct and all of that. But it's just like too much of a leap.  Like Kait would say -  you have to believe way too much.  
To that. I will say going back to like the them freaking out every time they saw the yellow jacket, that is kind of a thing when people are having psychotic breakdowns that like, insane bright colors stress them out. You know what I mean? So I don't think I don't think it was mind control. I think they would have freaked out if they were in bright red or bright orange. I think it's the color that like makes your brain freak out. 
Well, yeah, the fact that they had these police officers and they're screaming for help. They're like, 'call the cops, call the cops' and the guys like, 'we are the cops and we're trying to help you.' And they're like,  'I recognize you. You're going to steal our organs.' 
Yeah, I think. The true core issue of this situation is like mental health issues.  Like I think they were having a psychotic breakdown. I just don't understand how, again because everything is so hush hush. 
Yeah, but how we get from like we're normal,  suddenly there's a psychotic break, and then suddenly they're normal and that's it and that's all we hear about it And I kind of feel like I get that these women are trying to like move on with their lives. That's why I think they're trying to be so hush hush. 
And we respect that 100%, we do. 
Yeah. 
But because we're not trying to target these two women at in at all. No, but we're trying to figure out why they didn't come out and tell their side of the story. 
Oh, that makes me think that there is some kind of government deal. 
Yeah. And because why wouldn't you just come out and be like, 'Oh my God, I had a psychotic break. I was diagnosed...' 
Yeah, just come out and say it and then leave it at that. 
'...and I'm so sorry that this unfortunate man lost his life.' I don't know.
 It just seems like in the end, I hope somebody's taking care of his dog. I hope it's with his brother or the neighbor. 
OK, final thoughts. 
My final thoughts are. There's definitely some kind of. governmental hush-hush on the situation. I think it was related to drugs, and they were having a mental breakdown. I think it involved drugs, I think it was purposely kept hush-hush, but I'm sure that not every police officer was involved in the overarching background storyline, and I'm sure not everybody was properly trained with how to deal with people having a psychotic breakdown. Like I don't think they handled the situation well in that like both women getting so severely injured you know what I mean? On that standpoint. But yeah, my theory...
 I mean there were six of them trying to restrain her so I don't know what they could do but yeah. 
You're right, you're right. Let me scratch that. 
I think you're like trying to buy into every theory. 
I just can't.  I can't settle on one theory. 
I don't know if that's allowed. 
All right, my final thoughts are I can't determine one theory. I think drug selling was involved and mental health issues were involved. I think it's a little bit of everything and I don't think we'll ever know. And I feel bad for these women for getting hurt, but were they involved in drug dealing? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I don't think it was just like a psychotic break. 
I think they haven't provided me any information. Y
eah, we don't have enough. 
I have not ruled out drugs. I think that explains their super strength, their paranoia and. we only have one drug screen and we know that you don't get every toxin on every tox screen. And again, I could really buy into the MK Ultra theory, but I don't... I need someone to show me like, yeah, there were a lot of experiments happening in Sweden at this time. Santa Barbara. There's too many holes to jump right to that. So that's where I'm at. So I guess if Kait were here, she would tell us...
Okay, so for the poll, we'll do option one. 
And option one would be an entire paragraph. 
Option one would be Folie a deux. One twin was making the other twin crazy. Okay, mental health is an important subject for us to learn upon and educate ourselves, okay?That is exactly what Kait would say - self-care, everyone, let's talk about it. 
Yes, self-care is real.   Option two is the drug dealing. Were these twins in some form of drug dealing? Were they under observation? Okay, option three, mind control.  Were they in some kind of twin experiment where they were implanted to freak out?  And then option C, or the last option. 
Because she likes to go like option 1, 3, and then like D, E, and F. 
What was the last one? 
We could say cult. 
Oh, cult or demons. 
Or demons or Soviet super soldier. 
Yeah. So let us know what you think. This is my Kait...  interact with us, guys. Scroll on down there and hopefully Kait will chisel us another stone letter with her response and we'll catch you next week. 
Scroll on down, leave us a five star review, give us a like, it just helps us to you know get our name out there. And yeah, let us know what you think and we'll see you next week. See you next Tuesday. Bye.